Re: Eph. 2:8-9

Carl W. Conrad (
Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:57:11 -0500

At 11:57 PM -0500 10/8/96, Russ P. Reeves wrote:
>At 07:46 AM 10/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>It would appear that your question regarding a "solution" means that you
>>really want the antecedent of TOUTO to be PISTIS and are looking for a
>>grammatical justification for that understanding.
>>I suppose these instances will provide the justification you're seeking,
>>but I would still prefer to explain the usage of KAI TOUTO in Eph 2:8 as an
>I'm not sure if this was your intention, but the language used here is
>rather insulting. I'm not seeking grammatical justification for one view.
>Rather, since you presented one view I wanted to get your response to what
>seemed to be the best view from the other side, and since you said you knew
>of no NT examples, I provided one. If you had argued for PISTIS as the
>antecedent, I would have offered the objections of the other side. You may
>disagree, but this seems to me to be a sound methodology. In any event, I
>found your responses helpful, despite your judgements on my intent.
> Russ P. Reeves

Russ, I'm very sorry that my message came out that way, honestly. I got that impression from the tenor of your two messages, the first of which seemed to me to look for the TOUTO to refer back to one of the feminine nouns in the preceding clause, while the second asked if "this could be the solution" by pointing to instances in classical Attic texts where an antecedent of a different gender was picked up subsequently by a neuter pronoun. I guess you were actually still exploring an alternative to understanding the whole preceding clause as the antecedent of the TOUTO. In fact, the reason that I went back and carefully read through the LSJ article on hOUTOS was because those citations DID indicate possible reference of TOUTO to a masculine or feminine antecedent and I wanted to be sure that the idiomatic backwards-referring TOUTO wasn't also adequately attested in LSJ. The rather lengthy discussion of this passage in Wallace indicated that there had been a history of attempts to refer
the TOUTO back to PISTIS, and I thought that you were aligning yourself with that reasoning. I expressed myself very poorly, and I very much regret any insulting tone.

Regards, cwc