Re: EIPE LOGWi Matt & Luke

John M. Moe (John.M.Moe-1@tc.umn.edu)
Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:28:58 +0000



Jonathan Robie wrote:

> At 07:58 AM 11/27/97 +1100, George Athas wrote:
> >Greetings All!
> >
> >Brian Wilson stated:
> >
> >>If the official was a centurion, however, should we not also be
> >>considering whether the phrase might be a Latinism? The Vulgate
> >>rendering of EIPE LOGWi in both Mt 8:8 and Lk 7:7 is DIC VERBO
> >
> >And, if the centurion was around for long enough to build a synagogue,
> >he would have spoken with the local Jewish populace in Greek. I think,
> >therefore, that we can dismiss the possiblity of a Latinism here in this
> >expression.
>
> But it could well be a fixed expression that would be used by a centurion
> who worked for Rome, even if the centurion did not speak Latin (or did not
> speak it well). We say "Gesundheit" in English, even if we don't speak
> German, and a lawyer will issue a "habeas corpus" even if he doesn't speak
> Latin (and I don't either). The phrase "KURIE ELEISON" was used in many
> early liturgies in languages like Latin and Coptic. So I see it as quite
> possible that DIC VERBO would be a fixed expression, possibly used without
> translation within the military hierarchy, but more likely translated
> word-for-word into Greek. After all, to "issue a command" is a very official
> event which must be conveyed unambiguously, very likely to result in fixed
> expressions; in English, we "issue" commands and statements, but certainly
> don't issue words, sentences, or emails.
>
> I'll see your two cents and raise you one denarius.
>
> Jonathan
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
> Jonathan Robie jwrobie@mindspring.com
>
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Without any evidence of DIC VERBO in the literature this is, of course, all
speculation albeit great fun!. My thought, when Jonathan first raised the
possibility was that if the Roman centurion were speaking in Greek, which the
comment (ascribed to Brian Wilson above but actualy from George Athas' post)
affirms, the Latinism would be in the mind of the Centurion and his translation
into Greek, not from his speaking in Latin.

Jonathan, I'm not sure what I can see so I'll just call your denarius, but I'm
in for the pot!

John M.Moe