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b-greek-digest V1 #507




b-greek-digest            Friday, 9 December 1994      Volume 01 : Number 507

In this issue:

        Re: Cephas (Weeden)
        Fonts available
        Re: Cephas (Weeden)
        Re: Cephas (Weeden) 
        Cephas (Weeden)
        Cephas (Weeden)
        Cephas (Weeden)

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From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 06:20:33 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: Cephas (Weeden)

On 7 Dec 1994 JOHNSOST@cgs.edu wrote:
>                           ...  In Mark 4, they are taught in secret.
... much omitted]

Regarding chapter 4, the teaching of the disciples in secret seems to be 
surrounded with heavy irony. Even the phrasing of the antithesis in 4:11, 
"humin ... ekeinois de tois exw" raises questions regarding whether or 
how many of the disciples are actually "insiders," and then in 4:13 he 
tells them, "you don't understand THIS parable? How are you going to 
understand ANY parable?" Inasmuch as that first parable is carefully 
enclosed in parenthetical warnings about listening if one has ears and in 
view of the fact that the interpretation of the parable in 4:14ff. seems 
pointed at least in part at the "soil" qualities of disciples as 
listeners, it's hard to take this declaration that the disciples are 
given to know the mysteries of the kingdom as unqualified. What seems to 
me suggested is that even among "the disciples and those about Jesus" 
there are both "insiders" and "outsiders," the "outsiders" of which group 
are not going to grasp the messianic secret until after the resurrection.

I would like to apologize to the list for my ill-considered and 
ill-phrased postings yesterday on the present-tense aspect of EINAI. At 
best they were of only tangential relevance to the discussion of John 
8:58, and I failed to make my point clear in any case. I'll try to be 
more thoughtful about hitting that reply command hereafter.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


------------------------------

From: David John Marotta <djm5g@virginia.edu>
Date: 08 Dec 94 08:48:40 EST
Subject: Fonts available

This is an advertisement regarding ancient fonts sent to the list owner
and now being forwarded to the list as a whole.  I do not receive any
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appropriate to the list's subject matter.

I am using this opportunity to see it at least 5 people on the list fall into
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From: "Ecological Linguistics,Anderson,PRT" <ECOLING@applelink.apple.com>
Subject: Fonts available
To: DJM5G@virginia.edu
Message-Id: <786821768.6948521@AppleLink.Apple.COM>

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------------------------------

From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:03:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Cephas (Weeden)

Yes, Steve, the 12 do fail Jesus in Mark at crucial points.  I won't, 
however, here try to re-present the excellent (and, to my and most minds, 
I think, persuasive) discussions cited below.  Let me simply point out 
two things in response to your apparent view that the final Markan word 
on the 12 is rejection/failure.  
(1) You overlook the crucially-important 14:27-28, where Jesus both 
predicts the 12's failure AND promises nevertheless a renewal of their 
calling and fellowship with the resurrected Jesus.  The suggests to most 
interpreters that Mark intends the authoritative voice of Jesus to guide 
the readers as to the final status and attitude toward the 12:  
redemption and restoration beyond their failures.  (In the context of 
persecution of disciples suggested as part of the "life-world" of Mark's 
readers, the point would have been potentially controversial--contra some 
early Christian voices, it IS possible to be forgiven and restored even 
if one denies Christ under interrogation.)
(2) As to 16:8, it is MOST  unlikely that the "they said nothing to 
anyone" of the women was intended to mean that the 12 were never told of 
Jesus' resurrection, for Mark's readers would almost certainly (nothing's 
certain in history!) have known otherwise.  I repeat that the 
AUTHORITATIVE voice in Mark's narrative is God and/or Jesus, and 14:27-28 
must be taken seriously in guiding the reader.  These things combine to 
suggest that 16:8 in fact means that the women "said nothing to anyone" 
(i.e., to anyone else, but ONLY told the 12), which helps account for (a) 
the lack of prominence of women as "official" witnesses in early church 
tradition (i.e., they don't get mentioned as proving anything in such 
tradition as 1 Cor 15:1-7 or even in the Gospel accounts, where Jesus in 
fact has to appear to the 12 to make them the official witnesses), and 
(b) the silence of the women (toward outsideers) is part of the early 
Christian tradition that the resurrection of Jesus was disclosed ONLY to 
those chosen to be witnesses, and then from them to others.
	To avoid taking up more e-space, I refer interested readers to 
the following more extensive discussions.

Philip Davis, "Christology, Discipleship, and Self-Understanding in the 
Gospel of Mark," in _Self-Definition and Self-Discovery in Early 
Christianity:  A Case of Shifting Horizons, Essays in appreciation of Ben 
F. Meyer from his former students_ eds. D. Hawkin & T. Robinson 
(Lewiston/Queenston:  Edwin Mellen Press, 1990), 101-19.

Thomas So"ding, "Die Nachfolgeforderung Jesu im Markusevangelium," 
Trierer Theologische Zeitschrift 94(1985), 308ff.

Cilliers Breytenback, _Nachfolge und Zukunftserwartung nach Markus_ 
(Xu"rich: Theologischer Verlag, 1984).

David Rhoads, Donald Mitche, _Mark as Story. An Introduction tot he 
Narrative of a Gospel_ (Philadelphia:  Fortress, 1982).

R. C. Tannehill, "The Gospel of Mark as Narrative Christology," Semeia 
16(1979).

E. Best, _Following Jesus.  Discipleship in the Gospel of Mark_(JSNTSup 
4; Sheffield: JSOT, 1981).

C. C. Black, _The Disciples according to Mark.  Markan Redaction in 
Current Debate_ (Sheffield:  JSOT, 1989).

J. R. Donahue, _The Theology and Setting of Discipleship in the Gospel of 
Mark_((Milwaukee: Marquetter Univ. Press, 1983).

R. C. Tannehill, "The Disciples in Mark," JR 57(1977).

D. J. Hawkin, "The Incomprehension of the Disciples in the Markan 
Redaction," JBL 91(1972).

J. D. Kingsbury, _The Christology of Mark's Gospel_ (Fortress, 1983).

Cheers.  Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba 

------------------------------

From: Dvdmoore@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 14:50:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Cephas (Weeden) 

cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu (Carl W. Conrad) wrote:

>Regarding chapter 4, the teaching of the disciples in secret seems to be 
>surrounded with heavy irony. Even the phrasing of the antithesis in 4:11, 
>"humin ... ekeinois de tois exw" raises questions regarding whether or 
>how many of the disciples are actually "insiders," and then in 4:13 he 
>tells them, "you don't understand THIS parable? How are you going to 
>understand ANY parable?" Inasmuch as that first parable is carefully 
>enclosed in parenthetical warnings about listening if one has ears and in 
>view of the fact that the interpretation of the parable in 4:14ff. seems 
>pointed at least in part at the "soil" qualities of disciples as 
>listeners, it's hard to take this declaration that the disciples are 
>given to know the mysteries of the kingdom as unqualified. What seems to 
>me suggested is that even among "the disciples and those about Jesus" 
>there are both "insiders" and "outsiders," the "outsiders" of which group 
>are not going to grasp the messianic secret until after the resurrection.

     It is good for us to remember, as Carl Conrad implies, that we observe
the disciples from the other side of the crucifixion and resurrection.  Many
of the things Jesus did and said are only clear in the light of what happened
on Good Friday and afterward. (Cf. Jn. 16:12, 25.)  If we allow the disciples
that very human quality of simply not having infinite understanding, then
what Weeden saw as Marks polemic against the disciples may, in reality, be
the true picture of their struggles in coming to terms with who Jesus is - a
process that wasnt even *nearly* complete until after the crucifixion and
resurrection - .

     Seeing the messianic secret in light of Jesus conscience of His destiny
to crucifixion may also be helpful and iluminating.  One can aprehend what
must be at least a major reason for Jesus keeping his messiahship secret
when one considers that when He did pull out all the stops on Palm Sunday and
encourage his messiahship to be openly proclaimed, he was crucified within a
week!  This also would agree with what John says of the Lords attitude
toward His impending death - that it was a volitional act on His part - "...I
lay down my life , that I might take it again.  No man taketh it from me, but
I lay it down of myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to
take it again" (Jn. 10:17,18).

David Moore

------------------------------

From: JOHNSOST@cgs.edu
Date: 08 Dec 1994 17:36:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cephas (Weeden)

Actually, Larry, I didn't overlook 14:27-28, which actually strengthens my 
argument. In 14:27, Jesus predicts they will scatter, but in 14:28 he only
predicts what he will do (in contrast to 16:7, which is still conditional
on the women telling the disciples).  It merely says that he will go before
them into Galilee after his resurrection.  It's not his fault if they never
went back. As to 16:8, I don't buy the argument that they didn't not tell just
anybody, but did tell the disciples.  In Mark, fear silences people, or at 
least in the case of 5:14-20, drives them to request silence.  I also find a
great deal of irony in the fact that, outside of the Gerasene Demoniac, when
Jesus commands people to silence, they usually disobey. In 16:8, the women
are charged to tell the disciples about the resurrection.  They didn't do it.
Yes, the word gets out, but the twelve didn't hear it first.  How does the word
get out?  Who is left in the tomb???  DON'T tell me an angel -- its not in
Mark (angels are in Mark elsewhere, but not here.).  On the other hand, there
is a neaniskos elsewhere in Mark, in 14:51-52.  Here he is again.  An angel?
I would have to disagree with the majority of scholarship.  Someone who has
been symbolically baptized in Jesus' death?  Much more likely, and has mystery
initiation rite precedents to support it.  Again, I repeat, in 14:28, Jesus
merely tells the disciples what HE is going to do.  There is NO evidence,
IN MARK, that they follow.  The word gets out, but from the youth, not the 
women.  Petersen's prediction-fultillment argument, IMHO, doesn't work with
14:28.  I have to go with what the text says, and it says the women didn't
tell.  But there IS someone left in the tomb to tell.

Steve Johnson
CGS

------------------------------

From: JOHNSOST@cgs.edu
Date: 08 Dec 1994 18:01:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cephas (Weeden)

Ken, not only do I not dismiss you as a raving fundamentalist (you may be a 
fundamentalist, but does that make you a whack-o. I don't think so), but your
hermeneutical questions are important.  What would make the readers buy into
Mark?  

However, I should respond to a couple of points.  First, Burt Mack had abso-
lutely no influence on my thesis.  It was formed years ago.  Check my recent
Forum article -- I did give him credit for a point about the importance of meal
fellowship in Mark.  I don't even know if Burt has ever read the article. 

Second, there is resurrection in Mark.  The youth says so.  True, we don't know
from the text if the body has been resurrected.  But so what?  So Mark might
believe in the resurrection of a spiritual body.  That, of course, is no sur-
prise, or would be no surprise, since Paul doesn't believe in a physical resur-
rection of the body either.  But as to Mark , we just don't know.  We do know
that Jesus predicted his resurrection and the youth confirmed it.  So, there we
are.  Meanwhile, Mark might be establishing his own authority by means of the
gospel over against the Jerusalem leadership.  

Personally, judging by what we know of first-century anthropological conceptual-
ity, it would seem to me that the resurrection of the Spirit in Jesus would be
more convincing and persuasive than a bodily resurrection.  Note the lengths
Luke and John go to try to establish it.  Further, while Jesus constructs the
way in Mark, so providing the reader a paradigm for action, there is the youth
in the tomb, a paradigm of a baptized individual, announcing the "good news."
So, I think Mark's ending wouldn't be a problem for Mark's readers, especially
if it is written for a particular community (but it doesn't require this).  In-
deed, I think it might be very persuasive to some.  On the other hand, and
forgive me for assuming Markan priority, I think Mark was also perceived to be
quite deficient by other early Christians (hence, Matthew and Luke).  

So, no Ken, I've read too many of your postings to not respect your thinking.
Further, if I consider you a whack-o for thinking a leaf was lost from Mark, 
then, as I said before, Bruce Metzger must be a whack-o, raving fundamentalist
as well. I don't think so.

Steve Johnson
CGS

------------------------------

From: JOHNSOST@cgs.edu
Date: 08 Dec 1994 18:08:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cephas (Weeden)

BTW Ken, I should have added, it would seem to me that resurrection appearance
stories would be most important for proving a bodily resurrection.  If the 
resurrection is of the soul/spirit instead, why would one need an appearance?
Besides this, Mark already prepares us to expect that Jesus can be raised by
the healing stories, esp. Mark 5:21-43 and Mark 9:14-27.  Both stories are
thick with resurrection language establishing Jesus' ability to raise the dead.
This is one way I have serious problems with Weeden's book.  The miracles are
an important part of the story in establishing God's power to raise.

------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #507
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