b-greek-digest V1 #536

b-greek-digest            Saturday, 7 January 1995      Volume 01 : Number 536

In this issue:

        Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW
        Re: Virgin or Young Woman (Isa 7:14) & Re: A sign...and a seed 
        Re: Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW
        Re: Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW
        A seed...A blessing
        Isaiah 7:14 (was A sign...and a seed)
        Ken Litwak


From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:51:36 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW

For those of you who have had problems accessing the WWW resources for 
Hellenistic Greek Linguistics, there is a new URL that should work:


Many apologies.

James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
University of Western Australia, WA 6009, AUSTRALIA


From: dkennedy@cornerstone.edu
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 09:16:20 EST
Subject: Re: Virgin or Young Woman (Isa 7:14) & Re: A sign...and a seed 

In response to William Brooks' fine summary of arguments for a direct
prediction of Christ in Isa 7:14 (Thu, 5 Jan 1995), let me call the attention
of the list to a study that -- to my evaluation -- best treats the meaning
of "almah" in its semantic field, the syntax of Isa 7:14, the historical
context of Isa 7, and Matthew's "application" of the sign to Jesus -- 

John Walton. "Isa 7:14: What's in a Name?" _Journal of the Evangelical
Theological Society_ 30 (1987) 289-306. 

I have also found especially helpful ...

John T. Willis. "The Meaning of Isaiah 7:14 and its Application in Matthew
1:23." _Restoration Quarterly_ 21 (1978) 1-18.

I mentioned these two, because I find that they are easily overlooked (more
so than H.Wolf in _JBL_ and W.C. Kaiser in _EvanJ_). 

New Year's Greetings,
David B. Kennedy
Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, MI


From: DDDJ@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 12:23:54 -0500
Subject: Destroy? 

<<Here are my questions:
(1)  Did Jesus fulfill only the laws pertaining to sacrifice,
or did he also fulfill all levitical laws too?>>
Why use the word fulfill as meaning destroy? Jesus did not say  "I have not
come to destroy the Law and the prophets but to destroy." 

Confirmn here seems a better choice Jesus after all was a rabbi. Why would he
wish to abolish the Torah?
<<(2)  What bearing does Jesus' sacrifice have on various directives
such as stoning adulterors, etc?  That is, are we still bound to
their directives?>>
This seems beyond the scope of B Greek, but I would say eventually yes, right
now no
<< Are we still bound by moral law such as the 10 commandments, etc.
If so, why didn't Jesus' atonement eliminate these also?
I do not think the Atonemment abolished any laws


From: Dennis <dennis@lewis.mt.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 11:07:33 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW

Any way for us who can't use WWW to access these resources?

Dennis Rardin

On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, James K. Tauber wrote:

> For those of you who have had problems accessing the WWW resources for 
> Hellenistic Greek Linguistics, there is a new URL that should work:
> http://www.uwa.edu.au/HGrk
> Many apologies.
> James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
> 4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
> University of Western Australia, WA 6009, AUSTRALIA


From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 02:25:57 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Re: Hellenistic Greek Linguistics on WWW

On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, Dennis wrote:
> Any way for us who can't use WWW to access these resources?

Well there *are* ways but none of them are particularly desirable. If you 
can't get access to a browser like lynx and your provider won't install it,
you can do one of two things:

1. Telnet to a browser:
	try 'telnet telnet.w3.org'

2. Retrieve WWW by e-mail: 
	mail server@mail.w3.org with the message body:
	send http://www.uwa.edu.au/HGrk

But far and away the best option is to find a provider who'll give you 
lynx or some other browser.

James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
University of Western Australia, WA 6009, AUSTRALIA


From: William Brooks <wjbrooks@olympus.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 12:45:27 -0800
Subject: A seed...A blessing

Thank you for the kind comments I have seen regarding my posting concerning
almah. I hope no one minded an essentially OT listing in a NT list. But
where does one go who has an interest in the use of the OT in the NT? 

Of course my posting could not include the footnotes that went with the
original. My apologies to those I quoted without the proper recognition due
to them. The following is the bibliography that I used for the article (of
course, I don't necessarily agree with all the sources listed). Those marked
with ** are, IMHO, especially worthy. If there are other sources that I need
to consider please let me know.


Gundry, Robert H.  The Use of the Old Testament in St. Matthew's Gospel.
Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1975.

Hasel, Gerhard F.  The Remnant: The History and Theology of the Remnant Idea
from Genesis to Isaiah.  Berrien Springs: Andrews University Press, 1972.

**Hengstenburg, E. W.  Christology of the Old Testament.  Vol 2.  Grand
Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1956. (an old standard)

Rowdon, Harold, ed.  Christ the Lord: Studies in Christology Presented to
Donald Guthrie.  Downer's Grove: Inter-Varsity Press, 1982.

Stendahl, Krister.  The School of St. Matthew and its Use of the Old
Testament.  Uppsala: Almquist and Wiksells, 1954.

**Van Groningen, Gerard.  Messianic Revelation in the Old Testament.  Grand
Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990.

**Young, Edward J.  The Book of Isaiah.  Vol. 1.  Chapters 1-18.  Grand
Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1965. (From an evangelical
perspective, probably the best commentary on Isaiah. In 3 vols. I think CBD
has it on sale for $25)


Cogan, Mordechai and Hayim Tadmor.  "Ahaz and Tiglath-Pilesar in the Book of
Kings: Historiographic Considerations."  Biblica 60 (1979): 491-508.

Dalley, Stephanie.  "Yahweh in Hamath in the 8th Century BC: Cuneiform
Material and Historical Deductions."  VT 40 (January 1990): 21-32.

Flamming, James.  "The New Testament Use of Isaiah."  Southwestern Journal
of Theology 9 (Fall 1968): 89-103. 

**Goetze, Albrecht.  "The Nikkal Poem from Ras Shamra."  JBL 60 (December
1941): 353-374.

**Gordon, Cyrus H.  "`Almah in Isaiah 7:14."  Journal of Bible and Religion
21 (April 1953): 106. (Jewish scholar)

Gottwald, Norman K.  "Immanuel as the Prophet's Son." VT 8 (January 1958):

Hasel, Gerhard F.  "Linguistic Considerations Regarding the Translation of
Isaiah's Shear-Jashub: A Reassessment."  Andrews University Seminary Studies
9 (January 1971): 36-46.

Hillyer, Norman.  "Matthew's Use of the Old Testament."  Evangelical
Quarterly 36 (January-March 1964): 12-26.

Hogenhaven, Jesper.  "The Prophet Isaiah and Judean Foreign Policy Under
Ahaz and Hezekiah."  Journal of Near Eastern Studies 49 (October 1990): 351-54.

**Jensen, Joseph.  "The Age of Immanuel."  CBQ 41 (April 1979): 220-39.  

Kaiser, Walter C.  "The Promise of Isaiah 7:14 and the Single-Meaning
Hermeneutic."  Evangelical Journal 6 (Fall 1988): 55-70.  

Lacheman, Ernest R.  "Apropos of Isaiah 7:14."  Journal of Bible and
Religion 22 (January 1954): 43.

McKane, William.  "The Interpretation of Isaiah 7:14-25."  VT 17 (April
1967): 208-19.

Mueller, Walter.  "A Virgin Shall Conceive."  Evangelical Quarterly 32
(October-December 1960): 203-7.

**Niessen, Richard.  "The Virginity of the almah in Isaiah 7:14."
Bibliotheca Sacra 137 (April-June 1980): 133-50.

O'Rourke, John J.  "The Fulfillment Texts in Matthew."  CBQ 24 (October
1962): 394-403.

**Reymond, Robert L.  "Who is the 'almah of Isaiah 7:14?"  Presbyterion:
Covenant Seminary Review 15 (Spring 1989): 1-15.

Rice, Gene.   "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy."
Zeitschrift fur die Alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 90 (1978): 220-27.

________.  "The Interpretation of Isaiah 7:15-17."  JBL 96 (1977): 363-69.

Scullin, John J.  "An Approach to the Understanding of Isaiah 7:10-17."  JBL
87 (September 1968): 288-300.

Tadmor, Hayim.  "Ahaz and Tiglath-Pilesar in the Book of Kings:
Historiographic Considerations."  Biblica 60 (1979): 491-508.

Vasholz, Robert.  "Isaiah and Ahaz: A Brief History of Crisis in Isaiah 7
and 8."  Presbyterion: Covenant Seminary Review 13 (Fall 1987): 79-84.

**Vawter, Bruce.  "The Ugaritic Use of lmt."  CBQ 14 (October 1952): 319-22.

**Walton, John H.  "Isa. 7:14: What's In a Name?"  Journal of the
Evangelical Theological Society 30 (September 1987): 289-306.

Wolf, Herbert M.  "A Solution to the Immanuel Prophecy in Isaiah 7:14-8:22."
JBL 91( December 1972): 449-456.

**Young, Edward J.  "The Immanuel Prophecy."  Westminister Theological
Journal 15 (May 1953): 97-124

**________.  "The Immanuel Prophecy: Second Article."  Westminister
Theological Journal 16 (November 1953): 23-50. (These 2 are essentially
reproduced in his commentary on Isaiah)


From: George Ramsey <gramsey@cs1.presby.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:39:17 -0400 (EST)
Subject: Isaiah 7:14 (was A sign...and a seed)

If I understand the conclusion of your posting on 5 January, I have 
several problems with it.  I understand your conclusion to be that the 
sign relayed by Isaiah to King Ahaz can have only one referent: namely, 
the birth of Jesus.  

I have no problem with Matthew and other Christians applying the prophecy 
to the birth of Jesus.  God's words, as delivered by a prophet, are not 
exhausted the first time they come to pass.  (Otherwise what sense would 
there be in our preaching Sunday after Sunday from Biblical texts?)  But, 
conversely, the later fulfillment of a prophetic word or sign in the 
Christ event does not invalidate the original meaning or fulfillment in 
the era before Jesus's coming.

The following are some of the reasons why I would continue to maintain that 
the application of Isaiah 7:14 to an occurrence in the 700's B.C. should be 
understood as the original meaning of the sign.

	1. How would an event to happen 700 years later be a sign to King Ahaz?

	2. How often do you find in the Old Testament a "sign" ('ot) 
which is not immediately accessible or imminent?

	3. Your reference to the syntax of 7:14 as constituting an 
instance of the futurum instans would lead naturally to the conclusion 
that the event was imminent when Isaiah announced it.

	4. The closest parallel, syntactically, to Isaiah 7:14 occurs in 
Genesis 16:11, where the angel of the Lord announces to Sarah, "Behold 
(hinneh) you [are] with child (hrh) and you shall bear (wyldt) a son..."  
No problem with construing the pregnancy as *already underway* and the 
birth as *yet to come.*

	5. Isaiah went on to say, in 7:16, that "before the child knows 
how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two 
kings you are in dread will be deserted."  This makes sense in the 
context of the mid-730's B.C., when Ahaz feared the attack by the kings 
of Israel and Syria.  Can it make sense at all (without an interpretive 
tour de force) in reference to the childhood of Jesus? [Query: For those 
of you whose high doctrine of inspired prophecy leads you to believe that 
the only referent of the Immanuel sign is Jesus, wouldn't this verse 
imply that there was a time when Jesus did NOT know how to refuse the 
evil and choose the good? Does your view of Jesus's divinity 
accommodate this implication?]

	6. When consulting the LXX for an indication of how the text was 
read in the late Jewish (pre-NT) world, we do indeed note the use of 
parthenos [but, as Moshe Shulman noted in a posting about a week ago, that 
noun is used at places in the LXX OT--he mentioned Genesis 34:3--where it is 
clear that it does not mean "virgin"].  But note also that the same Jewish 
translator read the phrase wqr't smw immnw-'l as "*thou* [i.e., Ahaz] shalt 
call his name Immanuel"; it would seem that our LXX translator (whatever 
implications he attached to parthenos) took the child to be one that 
would be born in Ahaz's day.

	7. My thinking is that we have too small a sample of the uses of 
almah and bethulah in Israel to base too much on the precise meaning 
which we believe attaches to these terms.  If we bring in Ugaritic parallels to 
illumine OT usage, this may only cloud the issue.  I do not have the 
references at hand, but is it not true that the two cognate terms in 
Ugaritic (glmt and btlt) are used, in parallel, with reference to Anat, 
goddess of love--and certainly no virgin?  It may be that the ancients 
did not employ these terms (absent some additional modifiers, as in 
Genesis 24:16) to make precise a woman's virginity. (I'm not sure that even
parthenos in classical Greek is so unambiguous as our discussion
sometimes implies.)

My position is that we should read the text in the most natural way 
possible, and in this case it means understanding Isaiah's words to refer 
to an imminents event which could mean something to Ahaz.  (Reading the text 
"naturally" does not preclude later readers from finding more in a text 
than the original speaker/writer/listener understood.)

P.S. to wjbrooks (William? Bill? Jim?): Thank you for the bibliography 
posted today. 

George W. Ramsey
Presbyterian College 
Clinton, SC


From: "Philip L. Graber" <pgraber@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:27:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Ken Litwak

Ken (and with apologies to the list),

I have tried send a message to you in response to one of your messages to 
the list, but the mail daemon here keeps bouncing it. Is there a way to 
get mail to you without sending it to the list?

Philip Graber
Graduate Student in New Testament	Graduate Division of Religion
Emory University			211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
pgraber@unix.cc.emory.edu		Atlanta, Georgia 30322 USA


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