b-greek-digest V1 #588

b-greek-digest           Saturday, 25 February 1995     Volume 01 : Number 588

In this issue:

        Re: The article in Homer
        Re: Lord's prayer
        Re: Plural only nouns
        Re: Lord's prayer
        Re: The article in Homer 
        Grace Notes by E-Mail !! 


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 05:46:52 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: The article in Homer

Rod, you might want to look at a classic piece from about 40 years ago by 
Bruno Snell in _Die Entdeckung des Geistes_, E.V. _The Discovery of the 
Mind_. The particular chapter is entitled something like "The Invention 
of the Article." Snell puts this "event" in the sixth c. B.C.E. and 
ascribes it to Ionian culture. There ought to be some bibliographic rfcs. 
in his notes. Certainly it is evident that the normal use of HO,HE,TO in 
Homeric epic is as a weak demonstrative. You might want to look at the 
classic Homeric grammar (which I haven't looked at for ages): Chantraine, 
I think.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 05:52:53 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Re: Lord's prayer

On Thu, 23 Feb 1995 CRL6420@seward.ccsn.edu wrote:

> An interesting point that has come up in passing concerning the Lord's 
> prayer...
> The imperative form used in "Pray in this way" is a present imperative 
> form.  Though most translations give equivalent translations of aorists 
> and presents, it is inappropriate.
> The present tense implies continued action whereas the aorist is 
> punctiliar.  Because the imperative in question is present, a better 
> translation would be "Continue to pray in this way."  This would seem to 
> support a Jewish form for the Lord's prayer and a Jewish antecedent for 
> Christians addressing God as Father.
> This is addressed in an article by Robert Hoerber in the Concordia 
> Journal... I can get more specific bibliographic citation if you are 
> interested.

That present imperative could as well be translated, "Start praying ..." 
(with the implication that one should continue). It might be noted in 
passing that there are stronger imperatives than the regular present 
imperative, and I wonder whether even this present imperative resolves 
the question whether the Christian should feel obligated to pray THUS AND 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: Travis Bauer <bauer@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:37:13 -36000
Subject: Re: Plural only nouns

	Thanks to all for the corrections.  Thinking over the examples 
some, I can see that we do have such nouns, and thus, I can see how the 
Greek might also.

					Travis Bauer
					Jamestown College


From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:11:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Lord's prayer

On Fri, 24 Feb 1995, Micheal Palmer wrote:

> Fanning argues that a better way of understanding the present imperative 
> is that it demands that an action (whether or not already in progress) 
> become CHARACTERISTIC of a person's actions/lifestyle. That is, the use 
> of the present in the Lord's prayer does not indicate that the listeners 
> were already praying in the prescribed way, but that--whether or not they 
> were--they should make such prayer characteristic of what they do in the 
> future.
> Use of the aorist, according to Fanning, would not necessarily imply that 
> such prayer should become characteristic of the way they pray.
Don't the aorist imperatives in 6:6 intend a habit just as surely as the
presents in the context?  Perhaps the aorists appears there because of the
series of concrete actions envisioned.  It seems to me that just about
every handy generalization on the meaning of these aspects that I've
ever heard is wrong.  We do should always quash them, because they
invariably turn up misused in sermons.... (Im My Humble Opinion,
of course, as always....
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest                            Department of Theology
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA                     Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com           Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts


From: Domenico LEMBO <lembodo@ds.cised.unina.it>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 16:38:04 -0100
Subject: Re: The article in Homer 

I'm working my way (slowly) through Thomas Middleton's classic work 
on the Greek article: _The Doctrine of the Greek Article Applied to the 
Criticism and Illustration of the New Testament_ (London, 1833). To my 
knowledge it's the last major work written on the article. There are, of 
course, entries in the grammars and a few journal articles. Have I missed 
anything more recent? He devotes one chapter to the use of the article in 
Homer. Since I'm not a classicist, I don't know what the debate was or is on 
that subject. I gather that there was disagreement at least in the early 19th 
century to the effect that the article was supposed to be a later development 
than Homer, who used the same form as a pronoun. Could anyone briefly 
fill me in on that debate or direct me to a source that would do so?

(Rod Decker)

At least since Chantraine (1963), most scholars tend to think that 'Homer' 
does know the article. This was clearly stated by M. Leumann (1950): "Die 
Umgangsprache der homerischen Zeit besass den bestimmten Artikel... 
Nichtgebrauch... also schon im Epos ein Poetismus; die Alltagssprache 
kommt zum Durchbruch in den seltenen Faellen der Artikelsetzung" (p. 12, 
n.2). Among Leumann's examples: Il. I 11, 33, 35, 54, 106,167, 185 etc.
On this matter the latest book(let) should be H.B. Rosen, Early Greek 
Grammar and Thought in Heraclitus. The Emergence of the Article, 
Jerusalem 1988. Less recent is L. Y. Beck, The use of the definite article in 
Attic Inscriptions prior to 403/402 B.C., Albany 1977. More general 
treatment in: A. Morpurgo Davies, Glotta XLVI (1968) 77-85; Kurzova, 
Glotta XCII (1969) 198-205. But on the whole still useful are: Meillet 
(1913) 187-193; Wackernagel II (1928) 125-152; Schwyzer-Debrunner II 
(1950) 19-27; Moorhouse (1982) 143-153; Bornemann-Risch (1978) $$ 
146-153; Blass-Debrunner-Rehkopf (1990) $$ 249-276.

Hope this helps.


       Domenico LEMBO                   Universita' di Napoli



From: Warren Doud <wdoud@bga.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 14:12:42 -0600
Subject: Grace Notes by E-Mail !! 

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