b-greek-digest V1 #595

b-greek-digest             Saturday, 4 March 1995       Volume 01 : Number 595

In this issue:

        Bill Mouce Flashcards
        Re: Mounce's Flashcard Program at condor.cs.andrews.edu
        Re: Verbs and Participles
        Re: Mounce's Flashcard Program at condor.cs.andrews.edu
        Re: hebrew/greek flashcards 
        I Cor. 11:23-26
        Re: Verbs and Participles
        Hebrew/Greek Flash Cards
        Text-crit qn.:  Matt 14:6; Mark 6:22
        Mack on Q1 and Cynics
        ftp site 
        Bible Study Programs 


From: David Cashmore <cashmore@actrix.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:23:50 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Bill Mouce Flashcards

Can someone please e-mail the location of Bill Mounce's flash card 
program.  I deleted the message containing the address!
I would like the DOS version please.  FTP preferably.

regards David

- -- 
David Cashmore         cashmore@actrix.gen.nz


From: "Philip L. Graber" <pgraber@emory.edu>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:02:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Mounce's Flashcard Program at condor.cs.andrews.edu

Does anyone know if Mounce's flashcard program exists in a DOS and/or 
Windows version?

Philip Graber				Graduate Division of Religion
Graduate Student in New Testament	211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
pgraber@emory.edu			Atlanta, GA  30322  USA


From: Larry Chouinard <fa78935@kcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 08:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Verbs and Participles

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, CALVIN L. PORTER wrote:

> Stanley Porter suggests that the time relation between the participle and 
> main verb can be signaled by their relative positions: i.e., a participle 
> before the verb indicates antecedent time, while a participle after the 
> verb indicates subsequent time.  I wonder if anyone else has verified 
> this observation?
> Larry Chouinard
> Kentucky Christian College
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Where does Stanley Porter make this suggestion?  Can you provide us a 
> reference?  Thanks.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Porter, Verbal Aspect, p. 389.


From: "Michael Moss, Director of Graduate Bible Studies" <MOSSCM@dlu.edu>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 1995 08:36:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Mounce's Flashcard Program at condor.cs.andrews.edu

Mounce's Flashworks exists in a DOS format, WINDOWS format, and MAC format.
I posted a note to him yesterday resquesting the correct FTP location for 
the DOS & WINDOWS versions.  


From: GAlanC@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:49:15 -0500
Subject: Re: hebrew/greek flashcards 

I don't know if this is whay you are looking for but I have used Memcards
from Memorization Technology.  These are available for Greek, with just
vocabulary and parsing, and Hebrew about $35.00
The card sets are keyed to several standard text books so that you can pace
yourself with the text you are using. You can print quizes and study sheets.

Memorization Technology
P.O. Box 60788
Palo Alto, CA 94306-0788
(Sorry I do not have the Phone)


From: David Moore <Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 08:16:30 -0800
Subject: I Cor. 11:23-26

williamson@bible.acu.edu (Darren Williamson) wrote:

>	I've been working in 1 Cor. 11 recently and am wondering how to 
>translate v. 26.  The question concerns whether the main verb in the 
>apodosis should be translated as imperative or indicative.  I think the 
>traditional translation is the indicative "you are proclaiming" but 
>if it would make better sense and match up better with 11:25c to 
>it as an imperative "proclaim!"  The sense in 11:25c seems obviously to 
>imperatival, yet it uses the same kind of language (HOSAKIS GAR + 
>subjunctive with a 2pl imperative verb in the apodosis) as in v. 26.  
>only real difference I can see is that the main imperative verb in v. 
>precedes the HOSAKIS GAR + subjunctive, whereas in v. 26 it follows it. 
>Does anyone have any suggestions about this verse?  Is it grammatically 
>possible or neccessary to translate KATAGELETE as an imperative?  

	Really, it's the context that argues for an indicative 
KATAGGELLETE here; even though the word, judged by its form alone, could 
be either indicative or imperative.  O(SAKIS . . . EAN at the beginning 
of v. 26 echoes the O(SAKIS EAN of v. 25.  The repitition of this phrase 
indicates some sort of parallel construction between vv. 23b-25 and v. 
26.  With O(SAKIS EAN as a referent, it appears that TOUTO in TOUTO 
PINHTE in v. 26 rather than corresponding to KATAGGELLETE.  One may see 
this by observing that TOUTO POIEITE in v. 25 refers to the taking of 
the elements of the Lord's supper (vv. 23b-25a).

	TON QANATON TOU KURIOU KATAGGELLETE (v.26), however, corresponds 
to THN EMHN ANAMNHSIN (v. 25), and so, stands as a statement of the 
significance of the communion of the elements of the Lord's Supper.  The 
EIS of EIS THN EMHN ANAMNHSIN indicates the purpose the Communion 
service fulfills, and so suggests that TON QANATON TOU KURIOU 
KATAGGELLETE funtions similarly in v. 26.  

	If KATAGGELLETE had an imperative meaning here, it would imply 
proclamation other than, or in addition to, the Lord's supper.  Such an 
interpretation would be discordant to the obvious parallelism between 
vv. 23b-25 and v.26 and would not follow the thread of meaning in the 
passage which is given to explaining the significance of the Communion 

David L. Moore


From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:23:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Verbs and Participles

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Larry Chouinard wrote:

> Stanley Porter suggests that the time relation between the participle and 
> main verb can be signaled by their relative positions: i.e., a participle 
> before the verb indicates antecedent time, while a participle after the 
> verb indicates subsequent time.  I wonder if anyone else has verified 
> this observation?

While it is extremely difficult to prove a claim like Porter's 
conclusively wrong, I must admit that I am not convinced by it. None of 
his examples (as I recall; I don't have a copy of the book with me to 
double check) *demand* the conclusion he proposes. If I remember correctly, 
the time reference in each one could be explained by factors other than 
the positioning of the participle in relation to the main verb. Can 
anyone cite an example where the participle MUST be read the way Porter 
proposes and its time reference cannot be explained by other factors?

Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 10:27:09 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: Hebrew/Greek Flash Cards

Since the subject has been kicked around the past day or two and the 
Mounce Flash Cards info has already been aired, let me now list here two 
products that have been authored by Charlie Woods of an outfit named 
"Vision Ministries" at Florida State University.  These are Macintosh 
programs entitled respectively, "Torah Tutor" and "Theos Tutor." Each 
package includes both Type 1 Post Script fonts and TrueType fonts and the 
Hebrew program even has a speech supplement built in--but using the 
older, rather unsatisfactory, version of Macintalk rather than the newer 
megabyte-hungry PlainTalk technology. He promises new versions this 
spring in color. I don't know how old these are, but they appear to have 
been produced originally for older-type, mostly obsolete B&W Macs--but 
they work fine on my LC575. I pulled these off of AmericaOnLine 
originally. They look like they are meant to be share-ware, but I can't 
find any price in the info that comes with the package. The Greek 
vocabulary stuff is based on Metzger's lists of word-frequency. I 
reproduce below a small file that was entitled "Troubleshooting" but that 
gives a bit more info than I have already given as well as the author's 
name and e-address. As I said, these are both on AOL in the 
Computing/Education section.

inserted text
- -------------------------------------------------

On most Mac computers, old and new, your tutors should work
fine. If so, disregard this notice.
Theos and Torah Greek and Hebrew tutors may experience some
problems in running on some newer machines, particularly AV
models) which do not allow 32 bit addressing to be turned
If you should experience any difficulties running your
tutors please try the following. 
If the program does not run or crashes (particularly with a
type one error), highlight the tutor icon and press
command-I to bring up the info box. At the bottom increase
the memory allocation (it should be set to 1500k, try
500-1000k more.
If this doesn't work turn off 32 bit-addressing in the
memory control panel.

On some model macs the program may run but the speech may
not function because of a 32 bit addressing problem on newer
machines. Again try turning off 32-bit addressing if you
The tutors are not presently native for the power PC some
they will runin emulation which may mean more memory or
slower performance.

Should you experience difficulties you cannot correct please
let me know by contacting me through America Online or
through any other service via AOL at:

Color upgrades that address all of these issues with
improved features are in the works and should be available
by spring '95. Please send in your registration (for the
retail version) or e-mail your name and address to the AOL
address if you wish to be notified of the upgrade.

Thank you,

Charlie Woods, Vision Ministries
- --------------------------------
end inserted text

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:09:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Text-crit qn.:  Matt 14:6; Mark 6:22

A small text-critical question for anyone who is inclined
to offer a judgment--

Is it safe to assume that Athanasius's text of Matt 14:6 must
HRWDIAS?  In NA27 only D is listed for the latter, so I'm
assuming it's a Western assimilation of this verse to Mark
6:22, where D and the "Hesychian" (Egyptian) texts both

I'll confess I haven't looked at an editio major.  Also, not
too much is riding on this--just thought after scratching my 
head about it for a while that it would be interesting to get
a better-informed perspective.

(The relevant places in Athanasius, as far as I can 
see, are CA 1.2, which refers to H QUGATHR HRWDIADOS [at
least according to the Migne text--no modern critical text
available], and H. Ar. 52.4, referring to the promise made
HRWDHS TH HRWDIADI.  No reason to think Ath. had the Gospel
text in front of him on either occasion.  I suppose there
would be nothing strange about either his not having a fixed
life-long opinion as to whether Herodias was the mother or the
daughter or his making a little slip as to whom the promise
was spoken to.)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest                            Department of Theology
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA                     Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com           Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts


From: Gregory Bloomquist <GBLOOMQUIST@spu.stpaul.uottawa.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:48:43 EDT
Subject: Mack on Q1 and Cynics

In working through some of the implications raised by Burton Mack in 
his _Lost Gospel_ (San Francisco: Harper, 1993) I have become stumped 
by a point.  Perhaps you can help me:

According to Mack , QS 39 (12.22-31) "bears the marks of reflection 
upon a Cynic-like movement in the process of social and ethical 
formation." (Lost Gospel, 123)  In order to draw this conclusion, 
Mack analyses the rhetorical pattern of argumentation found in the 
unit.  He finds in it the rhetorical device known as "thesis" or 
"elaboration", which he defines as an injunction set forth in the 
form of a thesis and argued as a principle.  The analogies (usually 
taken from the natural order) and examples (usually taken from life) 
present in the text are used as proofs, with the conjunction of them 
being considered a complete argumentation (Lost Gospel, 121-122).

Thesis: One should not worry about life (food) or body (clothing)

Reason: Life is mor than food and body more than clothing

Analogy: Ravens do not work for food; God provides for them and you 
are worth more than birds

Example: No one can add a day to his life by worrying

Analogy: Lilies do not work and yet are clothed

Example: Solomon in all his splendour was not as magnificent as the 

Analogy: Notice the grass: if God puts beautiful clothes on the 
grass, won't he put clothes on you?

Conclusion: One should not worry about food and drink

Example: All the Gentiles worry about such things

Exhortation: Instead, make sure of God's Kingdom over you and all of 
these things will be yours as well.

I am unclear whether Mack sees this rhetorical elaboration as an 
example of Cynic rhetoric or not.  If he does, he doesn't say so.  
Also, if he does -- even though he doesn't say so --, where does one 
find examples of this kind of rhetoric among extant cynic texts?  Any 
help on this one?

Furthermore, according to Mack (Lost Gospel, 122), there are elements 
that ENTER (my emphasis) this argumentation that support the ethos of 
the social movement (the Jesus movement) that lies behind Q1.  These 
are, he suggests, a) the reference to the kingdom of God, b) the 
appeal to nature as a manifestation of the divine, and c) the use of 
example from epic history.  He argues that "these features show that 
reflection on the movement had occurred and that a way had been found 
to give a reasoned account of its otherwise odd persuasions ("Don't 
worry about food and clothing")." (Lost Gospel, 122)  

Mack's points are good but again, do they point to cynic practice or 
are they an evolution away from cynic rhetorical practice?  I am most 
interested in the answer to this question re. (a) kingdom  language.  
But, noting (b) and (c) for the moment, I would say the following: 
re. b: cynic rhetoric does appeal to nature as exemplum (though not 
as a manifestation of the divine, I don't think, nor does Q for that 
matter); and re. c: cynic rhetoric does, especially in its 
later, Imperial form, appeal extensively to epic history and 
quotation.  Are these then evidences that we are dealing with cynic 
rhetoric in the Q1 elaboration?  I would think that they are?  If we 
add to this the kingdom language, again found extensively in the 
later, Imperial cynic texts -- and NOT (as recently maintained on 
this list) therefore just a matter to be localised in Hebrew/Jewish 
tradition --, then we have further confirmation of the cynic 
evolution of Q1 from earlier non/or/less cynic materials.

Finally, Mack argues that every block of Q1 material exhibits 
the same strategy.  He points out how QS8 (6.20-23) posits the 
aphoristic "Blessed are the poor" and then moves on to a tripartite 
characterisation of Jesus' followers (the poor, the hungry, and those 
with reason to mourn) and to a blessing on those who suffer rejection 
due to their association wtih Jesus and his followers.  The Cynic-
like injunction in QS9 (6.27-35) "bless those who curse you" is 
turned into "an elaborate explication of what it means to "love your 
enemies"."  The "cautionary injunction" in QS10 (6.36-38)  "Don't 
judge and you won't be judged" is turned into an ethical principle 
with theological consequences.  The "Cynic-like observation" in QS11 
(6.39-40) about the blind leading the blind is turned into a warning 
not to consider one's self more sage than one's teacher.  QS 13 (6.43-
45) "turns the unnerving obsrevation about trees and their fruit into 
a moralistic admonoition to match what you say with what you really 
think.  QS14 (6.46-49) illustrates the import of a sharp riposte, 
"Why call me master and not do what I tell you?" with a parable about 
building a house that can last.  If the core of the prayer in QS26 
[11.1-4]is the request for daily bread, a Cynic theme, it has been 
embedded in a thoroughly theologised social piety.  IN QS 27 [11.9-
13] the beggar's delight, "Ask and it will be given to you," has been 
transformed into a comforting community maxim about the assurance of 
God's care.  IN QS38 [12.13-21] a Cynic-like put-down, "Sir, who made 
me your judge or lawyer?" leads to a moralistic parable about th 
etragic fate of a rich man who did not make th eright "judgment" 
about his goods.  And the thoroughly Cynic injunction in QS 40 [12.33-
34]to sell on'e spossessions and give to charity was turned into a 
promise of treasure in heaven." (Lost Gospel, 123)

So, my final question is: if we assume, with Mack, that Q1 is a "cynic 
production" (and I don't know exactly how to phrase this more 
precisely) what is Mack saying exactly about the material that we 
find in Q1: that it is cynic (and the preceding material, presumably 
material from the historical Jesus himself, wasn't), that Q1 (as in 
the case of QS39) goes BEYOND the "cynic-like" material (Mack's 
phrase) that Mack sees Q1 as consistently picking up and thus Q1 
becomes something other than cynic (though this seems to be at odds 
with later statements in which the phrase Kingdom of God in Q1 
matches the Cynic use of "kingdom" terminology), or what?  In sum, is 
Q1 cynic (according to Mack) or is it an evolution beyond it?  
Perhaps Mack is not sure and that is the problem with this portion of 
his work.  Any thoughts?  

(To solicit the maximum amount of "help from my friends", I am 
posting this to both the B-Greek list (because of its penchant for 
discussion of Q questions) and ACTS-L (because of its recent 
imperialistic addition of Luke to its "heavenly rule" :-).)

Faculty of Theology   | Faculte de Theologie
Saint Paul University | Universite Saint-Paul
(University of Ottawa | Universite d'Ottawa)
223 Main, Ottawa, Ontario, K1S 1C4 CANADA

Voice:    613-236-1393 (messages) / 613-782-3027 (direct)
Fax:      613-236-4108


From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 15:17:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: participles

re: reading of participles, two comments.

1) one would expect that such an effect would be a) nongrammatical,
i.e., pragmatic and b) dependent on perfective aspect (ie., where the
two events wouldn't be overlapping).

2) such an effect of ordering does have analogues, especially in
languages that lack a have+en type "perfect" (e.g., with two Russian

a) when I came in, she ate the sandwich.
b) she ate the sandwich when I came in.
c) she had eaten the sandwich when I came in.

2B) because in English the default reading of simple verb forms is
perfective, eating and coming in cannot be overlapping.  however, the
ordering of eating and coming appears to be a strong implicature, ie.,
can be overridden.  in a) the eating takes place after the coming in;
the reading in b) is not as clear (but since English has c), if eating
came first we would prefer to use the unambiguous perfect).  perhaps
native speakers of Russian (and other systems without the perfect
construction) could double check this, but the relative ordering of
events is more ambiguous in Russian, and the linear order should have a greater
effect (but since I'm nonnative, don't bank on that).

I would appreciate any bibliography on these ordering problems, if
someone comes across something.


From: Bill Mounce <bill.mounce@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:21:57 -0700
Subject: ftp site 

Good news.

I just spoke with my internet provider, and he said that I can get a home
page (ftp and WWW) on his computer. It will cost me a little, but people
have been paying their shareware fees so it is okay. It will take me  a bit
to learn how to do a home page, etc., but as soon as I can get it done I
will let you know.

This will be nice because I will be able to monitor it well. I know of
other people who are working on databases for Italian, Russian, and
Vietnamese. These and others I will be able to post here as well.

The other day I received a letter from a German gentleman who had corrected
the German database. Isn't Internet great?!?!


Bill Mounce
also mounce@macsbbs.spk.wa.us (no files please)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (only if essential, please)

"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me!"



From: TimWalk@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 20:06:45 -0500
Subject: Bible Study Programs 

I have been out of touch with the list for a couple of weeks, and was
reviewing some old messages When I came across the discussion of Bible study
software.  For those interested I did a comparative review of original
language software for the November Issue of Christian Computing.  Bible
Works, Bible Windows, and Gramcord are among the reviewed packages.  You can
get the article through Christian Computing (ph. 816-331-3881), on their
forum on the Christian information Network (CIN) via CompuServe, or probably
Christianity Online on AOL..


End of b-greek-digest V1 #595


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