b-greek-digest V1 #598

b-greek-digest             Tuesday, 7 March 1995       Volume 01 : Number 598

In this issue:

        Day of the Lord vs Gentiles
        Re: Mack on Q1 and Cynics
        Re: Mack on Q1 and Cynics 
        Re: Day of the Lord vs Gentiles 


From: Daniel Hedrick <hedrickd@ochampus.mil>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 06:38:57 -0700
Subject: Day of the Lord vs Gentiles

I was witnessing to Jehova Witnesses this weekend and
they made an astonishingly false claim.

The suggested that the "Day of the Lord" found in the
New Testament actually can be either the Day of the Lord or
the Day of Jehova.  The scriptures for Day of the Lord 
have been fulfilled and the Day of Jehova have not been

I pointed to Acts 2:20--That is the Day of Jehova and has
not been fulfilled.

Luke 21:24 "Day of the Gentiles" has been fulfilled as of 1914.
yet Luke 21:25-27 has not been fulfilled.

As soon as I began to ask pointed questions such as greek
proof texts (NT) that destinguish the different days and also
scriptural evidence that the day of the gentiles was fulfilled
they said that they needed to study.


If you could provide any background for the Day of the Lord
and the Day of the Gentiles...Please forward your comments
to me.



From: Gregory Bloomquist <GBLOOMQUIST@spu.stpaul.uottawa.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:26:00 EDT
Subject: Re: Mack on Q1 and Cynics

Greg Carey sent me this post.  I don't think that it appeared on 
either ACTS-L or B-GREEK, so I asked Greg is he would mind my re-
posting it on the two.  I do so in the interest of furthering the 
discussion.  My thanks to Greg, too, for his first answer.


 - - - - - - - Forwarded Message Follows - - - - - - -
From: Greg Carey <CAREY@library.vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Re: Mack on Q1 and Cynics

I know very little (and nothing from primary sources) about Cynics, 
but I do know a little about ancient rhetorical practice.  The 
pattern Mack identifies is just an example of good ole basic 
rhetoric.  There are two reasons it wouldn't go far toward nailing 
down Q as a Cynic-oriented tradition.

1)  Ancient rhetorical practice sought not so much to prescribe how 
people ought to speak as to describe how effective orators did in 
fact speak.  (That's why they used so many examples.)  The pattern 
Mack cites wouldn't be surprising in ancient culture, or even in our own.

2)  Aristotle, among others, highlights just this pattern of 
argumentation.  I could look up the specific sources (texts are at 
home), but I think the issue is that the pattern in Q would not be 
unique to Cynics.

Finally, if Mack isn't using this pattern to back up the Cynic 
argument, what purpose does it have?

Greg Carey
Graduate Department of Religion
Vanderbilt University


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 01:15:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Mack on Q1 and Cynics 

Hi friends:

  Concerning Cynics and the Gospel tradition, rather than Q, I think a couple
Luke-only passages (L) may reflect Cynic influence or origin.
   The parable of the shamelessly persistant man calling for help from  his
sleepy friend (Lk 11:5-8) and the parable of the unjust judge and the widow
(Lk 18:1-5) share a common outlook.  They both compare earthy and base
examples of how people are.  The argument follows that it is true that groggy
and unjust folk can respond to others' needs, then how much more will God
respond to us when we pray?
   Since these parables show a particular outlook on human nature, and they
are logical presentations, and since they come only from Luke's sources, they
may originally be from a Cynic source.
   As for Q, I don't see anything from Q that would reflect the Cynics.
 Apocalypticism and Cynicism aren't very similar at all.
   Take care and God bless. 

   Tim Staker ---- Timster132@aol.com


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 01:15:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Day of the Lord vs Gentiles 

Hi Daniel.
    Your question got me curious, so I did some digging.  My main resource
was Kittle and the GNT.
    Now as to the "Time of the Gentiles", Luke uses the word "time" (kairos),
not "day" (hemeras).  So your J.W. friend is wrong when he says the "Time of
the Gentiles" is "The Day of the Lord" and not the "Day of Jehovah".
    Now regarding "the Day of Jehovah", there is no distinction between it
and the "Day of the Lord".  In the NT and the Septuagint, Jehovah (YHWH) from
the OT is translated "Lord" (Kurios).  So really, there is no difference
between "Day of the Lord" (in Greek) and "Day of Jehovah" from Hebrew.  They
are the same.
    So to say the "Times of the Gentiles" is the "Day of the Lord" and not
the "Day of Jehovah" doesn't make much sense at all, at least based on the
    I guess the JW's have created this difference to help them understand
their own interpretation of apocalyptic scriptures, but its not from the
texts themselves.  They have had a tough time in the past as various leaders
have predicted the end of the world and it didn't happen, so they have had to
be creative in explaning it all.

    It is interesting that the phrase "time of the Gentiles (kairoi ethnwn)"
is found in one sole reference in Luke only (21:24).  From the context, it
seems Luke is speaking of the occupation of Jerusalem by the Gentiles
(meaning the Romans in 70 AD).  Luke understood that Christ would be
returning soon afterwards to lliberate them (21:28).

     About the phrase "the Day" or "Day of the Lord", it seems to have a
little different nuance for different NT writers.
    Luke sees it as a revealing of the Lord's glory (see Luke 17:24; 21:27
and Acts 2:20).
    For Paul, "the Day" is primarily about judgment (1 Thess 5:2,5; 1 Cor
3:13) -- of the church (1Cor 1:8) of himself and Timothy (2Cor 1:14), as well
as the world, to encourage ethical living.  Christ's coming is tied to this
judgment (2 Thes 1,2; Php 1:6,10; 2:16).  In other words, for Paul "the Day" i
s Christ's coming to judge us.
     In Hebrews, remembering "the Day" approaching encourages us to love, do
good deeds and attend worship (10:24,25).  This is similar to Paul's way of
using the Day fo the Lord to encourge moral living.
    2 Pet understands the Day as when the world is destroyed in fire (3:12).
    But John the Revelator sees the Day as when the kings of the earth come
together for battle (Rev 16:14).
    Mark does not use the term at all.
    Matthew speaks not of "the Day of the Lord" but only of "the Day of
Judgment" when we are to give account for every careless word we utter (Mt
11:22,24; 12:36)

    So there you go, Daniel.  Hope this all helps clear things up.  I enjoyed
investigating it all, so I owe you some thanks, too.
    God bless and keep living for the Lord.

    Tim---   Timster132@AOL.com


End of b-greek-digest V1 #598


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