b-greek-digest V1 #631

b-greek-digest            Saturday, 25 March 1995      Volume 01 : Number 631

In this issue:

        Colossians 1:23
        Re: Textual "Corruptions"
        non-delivery notices 
        "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.
        James 1:13
        FlashWorks info 
        Re: Textual Transmission and ... 
        Re: Advice on preparing for P... 
        Re: Colossians 1:23 


From: ROD91@delphi.com
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 18:16:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Colossians 1:23

    I was wondering if any one could comment on Colossians 1:23 specifically,
but include as much context as needed. I am more interested in the grammatical
and syntactical significance than the theological, but I realize that it's
hard to divorce the two. My hope is that the grammar and syntax will uphold
my Theology, (Doctrine of The Perseverance of the Saints).     
    I am actually going on the presupposition that if Eph. 2:8,9 says we are
saved "by grace" and "through faith", then Col. 1:23 is not a passage
dealing with "Eternal Security" or our "position in Christ", for faith is
only the vehicle which God used to implement salvation and grace is the
force behind the application of salvation.
    One other thought, the NA26 shows a comma between verse. 22 and 23 and the
TR. has a semi colon. Is this significant the flow of thought in these
    It doesn't seem that commentaries deal with these sort of problems so
any light shed on this would be appreciated. If there are any studies or
papers written on this passage available I would appreciate knowing about
                                             Thanks in advance for the help,


From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 17:05:00 PST
Subject: Re: Textual "Corruptions"

merovin@halcyon.com wrote:
> There isn't such a thing as a corruption of text....None is more corrupt or 
> pure than another.  Who's to say?

In text criticism, the word "corruption" is used to indicate a change
in the text which introduces a deviation away from the reading of the
autographs, or at least deviates in a way which breaks the
chain of trust/authority by which our faith in the prophets and apostles is
transmitted down through time to support our faith in a leather book printed
in 20th century English.  Even if a change introduced by a copyist conjecturally
repairs an older error, reintroducing the original reading, or even if the
copyist improves on the original, presenting Gospel Truth more clearly
than was accomplished in the original, still his change _reduces_ the
apostolic authority attached to the text he transmits.

Now our preference for texts approximating the Bible autographs
is a theological preference, not universally held, but it only depends
on our theology of Scriptural Authority, and not on our theological
views about the messages in Scripture.
(I hope few of us choose a Bible text so as to best reinforce our previous
theology...  what a way not to learn anything!)

If someone believes that nothing can be known about the historical past, then
I don't have much to say to him, (just remind me not to buy his books),
but if people can know something about the past, then given a significant
basis of evidence, we _can_ judge how close texts seem to be to the
autographs, with a minimum of prejudice and superstition.

Vincent Broman,  code 572 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:01:25 -0500
Subject: non-delivery notices 

TO: b-greek@virginia.edu (Biblical Greek)
>From : Timster132@aol.com (Tim Staker)

RE: non-delivery notices

The other day (3/23/95) I had several non-delievery notices fron the
internet, 2 which I sent and 8 which were sent to me.

The following addresses were noted on those whose email did not get to me:


I don't know what the problem is, whether it has anything to do with the cba
on-ramp, or with my own AOL on ramp.  I do know that with AOL, it is best to
send and receive internet mail AFTER business hours.  If you have that
flexibilty, I'd appreciate it, because I really want to read your email.

If you sent a duplicate (CC:) to b-greek, it is possible that I received your

Tim Staker   ---Timster132@aol.com


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 20:36:19 -0600 (GMT-0600)
Subject: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.

I present what is, in fact, an old problem, the complex
dimensions of which do not cease to be puzzling to me, no
matter how many different angles I approach it from. I would
welcome complete enlightenment from whatever source
(provided, of course, that it makes sense!), but I would be
happy to learn new ways in which the old questions may be
answered or (which is the same thing) old answers that I
haven't heard before. The least I hope for is some fresh
approach, if there is one, to the question of what the Greek
phrase, HE GENEA HAUTH, means in this context.

In Mk 13:30 (Apocalyptic Discourse, following upon the
prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man and the Parable of
the Fig Tree), Jesus says: 

     "I tell you truly that this generation shall not
     pass away until all these things have taken place."

The parallel texts in Mt and Lk differ only in that:

     (1) Mt 24:34 & Lk 21:32 both have HEWS AN instead
     of MEXRIS HOU before the subjunctive;

     (2) Whereas Mt 24:34 has the same demonstrative 
     phrase as Mk 13:30 (PANTA TAUTA, in reverse order
     from Mk, but with no difference in meaning), Lk
     21:32 has simply PANTA "everything," rather than

My first question: does anyone discern any real difference
of meaning between (a) TAUTA PANTA/PANTA TAUTA and (b)

My second question: Is there a credible way to understand HE
GENEA HAUTH other than as referring to the generation being
addressed by Jesus? I should think that would be the surface
and intended sense unless other factors can be adduced in
favor of an alternative (such as, it refers to the
generation being addressed by the evangelist as the intended
audience of his gospel, or, in increasingly less credible
terms: the generation currently {i.e. 100 A.D., 500 A.D.,
1995 A.D.} reading the gospel, this world-age = this human
race which will continue to exist until a new humanity
fully-conformed to the new humanity of the risen Christ).

My third question has to do with harmonizing this prophecy
of the Apocalyptic Discourse in each gospel respectively
with the climactic prophecy of the Caesarea Philippi
pericope, wherein the experience that this generation is to
share is described in much more sharply-distinguished terms:

     "I tell you truly that there are some here standing
     who will not taste death until they have seen the
     Kingdom of God having come with power."

     "I tell you truly that there are some of those 
     standing here who will not taste death until they 
     have seen the Son of Man coming with his Kingdom."

     "And I tell truly, there are some of those standing
     here who will not taste death until they have seen
     the Kingdom of God."

My question regarding these parallel passages is: how are we
to understand the measure of eschatological fulfilment
expressed or implied in each version. Mark's version would
seem to be intractable with its aorist subjunctive and
perfect participle (ELHLUQUIAN): some of those who hear
Jesus speak will see the Kingdom of God as a fait accompli.
But how open are the versions of Mt and Lk to
interpretations allowing for a "delay of the Parousia>" For
instance, one might say that Stephen's vision, in Acts 7:55,
of Christ enthroned at God's right hand,is a possible
fulfilment of this prophecy, or that the mountaintop vision
of the risen and ascended Christ in Mt 28 is a possible
fulfilment of the prophecy in Mt's version of it. Or should
we assume that all three versions of the prophecy really
mean the same thing, and if so, what?

A follow-up question, if it is decided that a different
meaning is in fact intended in Mk 9.1 par.: IF we assume
that Mk's formulation points to an imminent return of Christ
within the lifetime of those listening to the prophecy or
intended as original audience of the gospel, then the form
of Mk 13:34 is consistent with it. But if we feel that the
differences of Mt 16:28 and Lk 9:27 from Mk 9:1 imply a
shorter or longer delay of the Parousia, then WHY do Mt's
and Lk's parallels to Mk 13:34 seem to point to imminent
return of Christ within one generation? Is it because this
text, the solemn asseveration of the promise of the return,
is so fixed in the oral or written tradition of the church
that no evangelist may alter it in redaction?

Anyone willing to take this on?

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: Kent Sutorius <kassutor@clark.net>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 23:49:48 +0500
Subject: Study

        I was delighted to see someone (I believe Michael Palmer) comment on 
the work of Stephen Krashen.  I have read most of Krashen's works because my 
speciality is second language acquistion and pedagogy.  Krashen has done 
extensive research on the value of reading in language acquisition.  I have 
heard him speak on this subject and I can say that reading plays a very 
impressive role in the acquisition process.

        I use a reading and translation methodology in my Greek I and II 
classes.  By the second semester, they have received enough vocabulary to 
read portions of the NT.  The trick is producing reading selections or 
choosing selections from the NT that provide comprehensive input.

        Narrative discourse (Gospels) provides able context to facilitate 
comphrension and long term memory.  Recycled vocabulary mixed with new 
vocabulary in a contextual framework challanges the student and enables him 
to progress in the language experience.

        Grammar takes a secondary role in my classes.  There is no 
memorization of paradigms or declensions.  Students learn through reading 
and use.  I find that students who have gone through traditional 
introductory Greek classes forget what they learn because of the short-term 
effects of memorization and they aren't motivated to read and do exegesis on 
a consistent basis.  I believe grammar serves a more explicit role at the 
intermediate and advanced classes where fine tuning in the language is required.


From: Kent Sutorius <kassutor@clark.net>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:47:36 +0500
Subject: James 1:13

        In the phrase "o gar theos apeirastos estin kakon", we find the only 
occurance of "apeirastos" in the NT and Septuagint.   "apeiratos" is  
commonly found in classical writings.  They may be akin to one another.  
"peiraoo" means experienced, so we can say that God has no experience in 
evil, i.e., he is holy.  Therefore he cannot tempt man to do evil.  Also, am 
I correct in interpreting the last portion of verse 13 to be an elliptical 
clause - For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man 
with evil. 

        We cannot confuse the use of temptation in verses 1-12 and the verb 
form in verse 13.  The context to temptations is due to the trials that come 
due to the details and outward circumstances of life.  These trials reveal 
the genuineness of our faith.  The verb form expresses the inner 
solicitation of evil.  The tempter is Satan and/or the lusts of our soul.  
As a generalization, "peirazoo" is commonly linked with Satan and 
"dokimazoo" (test - for the purpose of succeeding) is linked with God.


From: Bill Mounce <bill.mounce@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 21:52:43 -0700
Subject: FlashWorks info 

I have received several requests about downloading FlashWorks. In order to
send an application over Internet, it can be only seven bit, but
applications are eight bit. So once the files are xipped they are ENCODED
and in that format sent out. If you download them you must first decode
them, then you can unzip them.

I use a free program called WINCODE available from most places, including
CIS. DECODE the files and then unzip them.


Bill Mounce
also mounce@macsbbs.spk.wa.us (no files please)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (only if essential, please)

"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me!"



From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:54:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Textual Transmission and ... 

TO: B-GREEK@virginia.edu
FROM: Timster132@aol.com

   Paul Moser stated well on 3/23/95...
>Some critics wanta monolithic account  (either it was all >free-wheelingand
creative or it was all strict and disciplined), >but the fact of the matter
is more complex, as Aland >documents. In *The Text of the NT, 2nd ed.* (1989)
Aland  >notes that "... the text of the early period was many-faceted...

  Yes.  I'd like to ellaborate, if I may.  Aland's interpretation of early
papyri development is that there were degrees of faithfulness to the
examplars, based on the scribes' abilities and their opinion as to the
sacredness of the text.  The "SCRICT" scribes were excellent copiests and/or
believed the text they were copying was Scripture to some degree.  The
"NORMAL" scribes had average or better copying skills and may or may not have
not recognized their examplars as Scripture.  The "FREE" scribes either were
not the greatest copiests or they felt free to adapt the wording of the text
to local regionalisms, dialects, or simply used paraphrase to better
communicate the message of the letter/gospel they were copying.
   Later, when publishing houses of the centers of Christianity began mass
producing the Scriptures (during periods of religious freedom, esp. after
Constantine), the famous "Text Families" (or Types) came into being.
   This explains why certain text-types, such as Byzantine or Western, do not
find their existance in the early papyri.  You would think this would also
apply to the Alexandrian Text Type. However, P75 connects the early papyri
period firmly with B, and is the "missing link" to an earlier era of the
text, in particular the "strict" text with the later Alexandrian text type.

Tim Staker


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:55:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice on preparing for P... 

TO: B-GREEK@virginia.edu
TO: EHOBBS@wellesley.edu
FROM: Timster132@aol.com

>But After students have enough Greekunder their belts to read >the NT
without too much pain, I advise themto spend five >minutes a day (since they
can't very well claim they don't
>have even five minutes!) reading the Greek New Testament >aloud -- preferably
 portions they have already worked through, >but moving onto material of
somewhat less familiarity, in time. > No lexicons, nogrammars, just reading
the text aloud. 

  I have included this practice as a part of my daily devotions since my
early days of learning Greek in college, thanks to a thoughtful professor's

Tim Staker


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 00:56:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Colossians 1:23 

TO: ROD91@delphi.com
FROM: Timster132@aol.com

Let me see if I can clarify your question a little, Rod.

I think I hear you asking what the clause "if you remain..." is conditionally
based upon. There's three options I see.

1) v. 21 "you who were estranged and hostile..."
    This is a strong possibility.  There are 3 parts to v. 21 (being
estranged, mentally hostile, doing evil works) which is juxtaposed to the 3
elements in v.23 (being established, firm, without shifting).  
The first element of each is a passive participle (the first one is present,
the latter is perfect).

2) v. 22 "but now he has reconciled..."
    This is accomplished by God "through the blood of his cross" (v.20), "in
the body of his flesh through death". It doesn't seem likely that the
reconciliation is what is conditioned by our continuing to be established,
etc. (And this would theologically be semi-pelegianist). APOKATHLLAZEN
("Reconciled") is aorist active indicative.

3) v. 23 "to present you holy..."
    This is a possiblility as well.  PARASTHSAI (to present) as an infinitive
(aorist in this case) can express either purpose or result.
The result of "holy and blameless" could be affected by one not remaining
established, firm and not shifting.

So, I can see option 1 having a strong possibility, with the mirrored
structure.  Option 3 is also a strong contender, being closest to "if you
remain...".  Another option is that all three options are modified by "if you
remain."   But I think option 1 (v.21) works best.

Tim Staker


End of b-greek-digest V1 #631


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