b-greek-digest V1 #633

b-greek-digest             Monday, 27 March 1995       Volume 01 : Number 633

In this issue:

        ACH/ALLC '95 
        Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.
        Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.
        Re: Exegetical Method
        Aland's early text 
        a final note from me on midrash 
        Re: Objective Genitive of PISTIS
        Re: Aland's early text 
        Re: "This generation ...": Mk... 


From: GeoGunn@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 09:59:13 -0500



From: Eric Dahlin <hcf1dahl@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 95 12:23:26 PST
Subject: ACH/ALLC '95 




                         JULY 11-15, 1995

On behalf of the Executive Councils of the Association for
Computers and the Humanities and the Association for
Literary and Linguistic Computing, we cordially invite you
to attend the seventh annual joint international conference,
to be held at the University of California, Santa Barbara,
July 11-15, 1995.

This conference is the major forum for discussion of the
preparation, encoding, and use of character-based electronic
text and for computer-based research in literature,
linguistics, and related humanities disciplines. It will
include presentations on the development of new computing
methodologies for research and teaching in the humanities,
on the development of significant new materials and tools
for humanities research, and on the application and
evaluation of computing techniques in humanities subjects.

The Association for Computers and the Humanities is a
professional society for scholars working in computer-
related research in literature and language studies,
history, philosophy, and other disciplines of the

The Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing was
founded in 1973 as an international association to promote
the development of literary and linguistic computing.

- ---------
As a preliminary event, an optional tour of the city of
Santa Barbara has been scheduled for the afternoon of
Tuesday, July 11, from 1pm to 4pm.

The conference will officially begin in the late afternoon
and evening of Tuesday, July 11, with a reception, opening
addresses, and an optional banquet.

Concurrent sessions will begin on the morning of Wednesday,
July 12, and continue through to closing at noon on
Saturday, July 15.

An optional beach barbecue will be held on the evening of
Friday, July 14.

An optional winery tour will take place on the afternoon of
Saturday, July 15, after the closing of the conference.

Room and board accommodations are available in campus
dormitories at economical rates, and rooms are available at
special conference rates at a variety of area motels and

Details are given below.

Air Transportation to Santa Barbara:
- ------------------------------------
The Santa Barbara/Goleta Airport provides jet service by
United Airlines from major international airports in San
Francisco and Denver. Several forms of transportation are
available between Los Angeles International Airport and
Santa Barbara, including commuter flights, rental cars and
bus service, particularly the Santa Barbara Airbus, which
has several scheduled pick-ups daily from LAX.  Please
phone them directly at (805) 964-7759 for more information.
Or, you can send them a fax at (805) 683-0307.

Complimentary Shuttle Service:
- ------------------------------
UCSB Campus Conference Services will provide complimentary
Shuttle Service to campus from the Santa Barbara Airport
ONLY.  The shuttle vehicle will be marked "UCSB
Conferences."  Pick-up will be in front of the terminal or
near the baggage area.  If you do not see the shuttle
vehicle, call the Anacapa Residence Hall Desk at 893-2189.
Please make sure to write this number down so that you can
easily access it upon your arrival.

- ----
Bus service to Santa Barbara is provided by Greyhound.
The Greyhound terminal is located in downtown Santa Barbara.
Taxi service is available from the terminal to campus.

- ------
Train service to Santa Barbara is provided by Amtrak.
The Amtrak terminal is located in downtown Santa Barbara.
Taxi service is available from the terminal to campus.

- ----
UCSB is readily accessible from US 101.  When driving
north on US 101 (from LA), travel through Santa Barbara and,
about 10 miles north of Santa Barbara, take the Airport/UCSB
Highway 217 exit which leads directly onto campus.  When
driving south on US 101 (from San Francisco), take the
Storke Rd./UCSB exit, travel about 1 mile on Storke turning
left onto El Colegio Road which leads directly onto campus.
When entering campus, stop at the campus gate and request
directions to Anacapa Residence Hall; however, if you will
be arriving on Wednesday and especially if you are NOT
residing on campus, you may wish to ask for directions to
the University Center, where registration will continue to
take place and the conference sessions will be held.

- --------
Parking at UCSB is by permit only.  When you arrive
at UCSB you can receive directions and a temporary parking
permit from the gate attendant by identifying yourself as an
ACH/ALLC attendee.  This temporary permit will need to be
replaced with the permit you will receive either when you
check-in at the Residence Hall or during Registration if you
are staying off-campus.  Parking is complimentary for those
residing in the Residence Hall.  Please indicate with the
Desk Staff at check-in if you will be needing a permit.
Attendees residing off-campus may purchase a weekly parking
permit by indicating this on the Registration Form.  There
is a substantial savings in purchasing a weekly pass, as the
daily parking rate is $5.00.  Parking citations are issued
for failure to display permits and/or parking in incorrect

The Santa Barbara Area:
- -----------------------
The city of Santa Barbara, founded by the Spanish in the
18th Century, is considered to be one of the jewels of the
California coast.  It lies approximately 100 miles northwest
of Los Angeles, nestled against the Santa Ynez mountains
overlooking the Pacific Ocean.  In July, the days are warm
(75 degrees F) and the nights are cool (55 degrees F) with
occasional morning fog. Nearby are excellent ocean beaches,
lakes, forests and mountains with varied hiking trails.
Daily excursions can be made to the Hearst Castle, the
flower fields of Lompoc and the Old World Village of
Solvang.  In Santa Barbara you can visit the Mission, our
famous Court House or the Botanical Gardens.

- ------
Casual clothing is in order with a sweater or light
jacket occasionally needed for the evenings.  UCSB is
essentially a walking campus, so be sure to wear comfortable

- -------------
On-site registration will be held from 2 to 7 pm on
Tuesday, July 11 in the Anacapa Residence Hall. Registration will
resume in the University Center on Wednesday, July 12, from
8 am to 3 pm.

On-Campus Housing Information:
- ------------------------------
Plan A includes lodging Monday through Friday nights and the
following meals: breakfast and lunch on Tuesday (the
Welcoming Reception Tuesday evening is included in the
registration fee; there is an additional charge for the
Banquet Tuesday evening); breakfast, lunch and dinner on
Wednesday; breakfast, lunch and dinner on Thursday;
breakfast and lunch on Friday (there is an additional charge
for the Beach BBQ Friday evening; if you prefer a dining
commons meal Friday night, you will need to purchase a
ticket at the door of the commons); breakfast and lunch
on Saturday.

              Plan A Cost:  $315.00 (Single Occupancy)
                            $249.00 (Double Occupancy)

Plan B includes lodging Tuesday through Friday nights and
the following meals: lunch on Tuesday (the Welcoming
Reception Tuesday evening is included in the registration
fee; there is an additional charge for the Banquet Tuesday
evening); breakfast, lunch and dinner on Wednesday;
breakfast, lunch and dinner on Thursday; breakfast and lunch
on Friday (there is an additional charge for the Beach BBQ
Friday evening; if you prefer a dining commons meal Friday
night, you will need to purchase a ticket at the door of the
commons); breakfast and lunch on Saturday.

              Plan B Cost:  $268.00 (Single Occupancy)
                            $215.00 (Double Occupancy)

If you wish to stay in the dormitories for the extra
night of Saturday, July 15, you may do so for a lodging
fee of $42, single occuppancy, or $29, double occupancy.
No meals are included in this fee.

Commuter Lunch Packages are available for those residing
off-campus or in University Apartments.  Four and Five-lunch
packages are available, depending on your length of stay.

                     Cost:  $33.00 (4 lunches)
                            $42.00 (5 lunches)

University Apartments: A limited number of off-campus two
bedroom apartments are available on a weekly basis only,
Sunday through Saturday.  The apartments could easily
accommodate those traveling with families.  Meals and campus
parking are not included.

                     Cost:  $454.00 (weekly rate)

Off-Campus Accommodations:
- --------------------------
Blocks of rooms have been reserved, at special conference
rates, for the hotels listed (except for Fess Parker's Red
Lion Resort, where reservations will be based on
availability only).  Rooms will be released June 9, 1995.
Thereafter, reservations can be obtained only on a space
available basis.  The conference takes place during the
heavy tourist season and rooms may not be available if you
do not act prior to the release date.  Please contact the
hotel directly as soon as possible.  To obtain the special
rate, please identify yourself clearly as an attendee of the
1995 Joint International Conference--ACH/ALLC.  (You will
need to ask for the UCSB special rate if you choose to stay
at Fess Parker's Red Lion Resort.) The special rates given
below will not necessarily apply to Friday or Saturday night
stayovers; please check with the individual hotel should you
need additional accommodation.

None of the hotels listed below are within walking distance
of the UCSB campus.  Rates do not include 10% tax.  You will
be asked for either first night payment in advance or a
current major credit card account number to hold the room.

[The following hotels offer morning and evening shuttle
service to and from UCSB.  You MUST indicate your needs at
the time you check-in.]

     Pacifica Suites
     5490 Hollister, Goleta, CA  93117
     (805) 683-6722
     $85 (Single); $95 (Double)
     Rate includes up to two complimentary cooked-to-order
     breakfasts, two rooms, two TVs, microwave, stereo,
     refrigerator, pool and Jacuzzi.  Complimentary
     beverages served from 5 - 7 p.m.

     Best Western South Coast Inn
     5620 Calle Real, Goleta, CA  93117
     (805) 967-3200
     $73 (Single/Double)
     Continental Breakfast included.

     Holiday Inn
     5650 Calle Real, Goleta, CA  93117
     (805) 964-6241
     $63 (Single/Double)
     Free airport shuttle service also provided.

     Best Western Pepper Tree Inn
     3850 State Street, Santa Barbara, CA  93105
     (805) 687-5511
     $120 - $136 range
     Located mid-way between downtown Santa Barbara and the
     UCSB campus. Free shuttle service also provided to and
     from the Santa Barbara Airport.

[The following hotels do NOT offer shuttle service to UCSB.
You must provide your own transportation.]

     El Encanto Hotel
     1900 Lasuen Road, Santa Barbara, CA  93103
     (805) 687-5000
     Located in the foothills of Santa Barbara, with a
     15 minute drive to campus, the historic El Encanto
     Hotel features garden villas and cottages with
     spectacular views of the ocean.

     Fess Parker's Red Lion Resort
     (Reservations based on availability only)
     633 E. Cabrillo Blvd., Santa Barbara, CA  93103
     (805) 564-4333
     Located directly across from the ocean near Stearn's
     Wharf and downtown shopping.  Airport shuttle service
     available.  Please contact the resort ahead of time to
     inquire about the service. You must ask for the UCSB
     special rate when making your reservation.

Tour Information:
- -----------------

Santa Barbara City & Shopping Tour:
     Tuesday, July 11, 1995
     (1:00 - 4:00 pm)
     Cost: $24 per person (3 hours)

A scenic driving tour will feature a stop at the Santa
Barbara Mission, with its dramatic twin towers and lovely
inner courtyard and garden.  A stop at the courthouse, one
of the most beautiful public buildings in the country, along
with a ride to the top of the clock tower for a 360 degree
view of the city is included.  Time will be devoted to
sampling the wonderful modern and antique shops, galleries
and boutiques in the downtown area, as well as at the new
mall "Paseo Nuevo."

Winery Tour:
     Saturday, July 15, 1995
     (1:00 - approximately 5:30 pm)
     Cost: $28 per person (4.5 hours)

Enjoy a scenic drive from Santa Barbara through the Santa
Ynez Mountains and over San Marcos Pass.  Once in the
Santa Ynez Valley, a visit to one of Santa Barbara County's
award-winning wineries will be made for a tour and wine
tasting. A stop at the Danish village of Solvang where Danish
architecture, windmills, charming shops and interesting
outlet stores is also planned.

****************************** cut here ***********************************

Registration Form

July 11-15, 1995
University of California, Santa Barbara


        name tag should read:






   Special Needs (including dietary):

Payment of Fees:
- ----------------

Payment in U.S. Dollars may be made by:

     Personal Check
     Money Order
     Bank Check

[Checks must be drawn on a U.S. Bank and should be made
payable to U.C. Regents.]

     Credit Card: VISA or MASTERCARD

     International Wire Transfer (in U.S. Dollars) from
     your bank to:

     Bank of America
     San Francisco Commercial Banking, Office (#1499)
     555 California Street, 2nd Floor
     San Francisco, CA  94104
     Account #07805-00030
     Regents of University of California
     Santa Barbara.  Reference: ACH/ALLC

[If using this latter method of payment; please add an
additional $10 to the total to cover the bank's fee for
this service.]

Payment (please check appropriate box):

___ Personal Check
___ Money Order
___ Bank check is enclosed
___ Wire Transfer [please enclosed a copy of the
    wire transfer receipt with your registration]

Please charge to my credit card:

___ MasterCard
___ Visa

    Credit Card #:
    Expiration Date:

Please complete and return this form with your remittance to:

     ACH/ALLC '95, c/o Campus Conference Services
     University of California
     Santa Barbara, CA  93106-6120
     Phone: (805) 893-3072
     Fax: (805) 893-7287
     E-mail: hr03conf@ucsbvm.ucsb.edu

Refunds, less a $25 administrative charge, will be given to
registrants whose written requests are received prior to
June 19, 1995.

For questions regarding accommodations and registration,
please contact:

     Sally Vito
     Phone: (805) 893-3072
     E-mail: hr03vito@ucsbvm.ucsb.edu

Please check applicable items below
- ------------------------------------

Registration fees:

___ $150 (ACH/ALLC members)     Prior to June 5, 1995              $ ______
___ $175 (ACH/ALLC members)     Postmarked after June 5, 1995      $ ______

___ $170 (non-members)          Prior to June 5, 1995              $ ______
___ $195 (non-members)          Postmarked after June 5, 1995      $ ______

___ Guests $45                                                     $ ______

___ Graduate Students $45                                          $ ______

___ One-day rate (specify day & date) $75                          $ ______

On-campus Housing:

___ Plan A, Single Occupancy, $315.00                              $ ______
___ Plan A, Double Occupancy, $249.00                              $ ______
    For double occupancy, name of person
    you want to share with, if known:

___ Plan B, Single Occupancy, $268.00                              $ ______
___ Plan B, Double Occupancy, $215.00                              $ ______
    For double occupancy, name of person
    you want to share with, if known:

    Stay over Saturday night, July 15, no meals included:
___ Single Occupancy, $42                                          $ ------
___ Double occupancy, $29                                          $ ______

___ University Apartment, $454.00                                  $ ______


___ Parking Permit (off-campus attendees) $10                      $ ______
    (covers Monday through Saturday)

Commuter Lunch Package:

___ 4-lunch package $33                                            $ ______
___ 5-lunch package $42                                            $ ______

Optional Events

___ Banquet (Tuesday)   $40   x ___ number of people               $ ______
___ Beach BBQ (Friday)  $26   x ___ number of people               $ ______

___ Santa Barbara City & Shopping Tour $24 per person              $ ______
    [Tuesday, July 11]

___ Santa Ynez/Winery/Solvang Tour $28 per person                  $ ______
    [Saturday, July 15]

                                           TOTAL          $________________

***************************** cut here ************************************

International Program Committee:

Chair: Elaine Brennan
       ATLIS Consulting Group (ACH)

       Marilyn Deegan
       Oxford University (ALLC)

       Gordon Dixon
       Manchester Metropolitan University (ALLC)

       Marianne Gaunt
       Rutgers University (ACH)

       Susan Hockey
       Rutgers and Princeton Universities (ALLC)

       Nancy Ide
       Vassar College (ACH)

       Espen Ore
       University of Bergen (ALLC)

       Willard McCarty
       University of Toronto (ACH)

Local Organizer: Eric Dahlin
                 University of California, Santa Barbara



From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:26:55 -0800
Subject: Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.


I love this note of yours on panta and credo quia absurdum and the issues 
you raise.  I don't think I could have gotten to the core of the various 
problems any more directly or economically than you have here.

I've never met a Missourian who was convinced by anything than his or her 
own experience.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Time consuming, 
perhaps, but there's purpose to it and in any case, who's in a rush?

Your first intuitional grasp linking Philo and Theon and Pythagoras and 
India is on target, as I think you already knew.  On linguistics in the 
common understanding, whether it matters, you might go to a union hall and 
speak with the folks there about how their language isn't important because 
they don't know their etymologies.  They might remind you of who they just 
elected to Congress and what they intend to do with that power ....  For 
example, the government scholarships they intend to scale back so that 
pointy heads aren't so liable to tell them they don't matter .....  I'm sure 
you see the dynamic.

Words are sacred and puissant in themselves, whether one understands their 
etymology or not.  The sounds themselves are puissant, for good or ill.  
This is the reason we have chant and poetry and cultus at all.  In India 
it's called mantra.  Our media preachers use the phenomenon all the time.  
Their careers are built on it:  JEEEEEESUS !!!!!  The sound is enthralling.  
 Not only so, but the etymology shows the effect the sound is going to have. 
 Is this over your head?  Why do folks object to rock and roll?  Because the 
sounds are at vairance with the words, or, because the sounds are NOT at 
variance with the words and both are clear and present dangers to society.  
Enough for the Missourian.

The period of Indian cultural hegemony is in the realm of 200K BCE recorded 
(Ramayana) and of 3800 BCE tangible (Bhagavatha).  The Pandava brothers, as 
Rama before them, ruled directly or indirectly the entire surface of the 
planet.  The treasure is there, in India.  This is why the 10 Tribes of 
Israel, Alexander, Pythagoras and finally Jesus Himself went there.  The 
period of the latter's first visit in India comprises the famous lacuna in 
the Gospels' recollection of His Career.  The present Jewish calendar, 
incidentally does indeed tell "the age of the world from creation."  It 
tells, within fifty years, which at that distance is insignificant 
statistically, the time from the turn of the the ages, from Dwapara to Kali, 
the present Age or Yuga, which is characterized by just the run down we see 
all about us.  The Jewish calendar is a very precise time piece, in fact.  
Keeping Indian time, which is the universal time.

As for Philo and Theon and Egypt -- it is my surmise -- and that is all I 
claim for it -- that Jesus grew up in Egypt, probably the environs of 
Alexandria, because Herod was dead serious about eliminating him because of 
his descent which the three from the East (they were Tibetans) had mentioned 
to him.  Jesus was in the temple at Jerusalem "teaching" the doctors because 
he was learned from Alexandria, the center of learning of the Mediterranian 
world.  This is how He "knew so much."  The dating of Herod and his son's 
accession can give this surmise, but I won't claim more for it than that.

All the best,


The Rev. David R. Graham
Resident, Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy, Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning


From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:34:01 -0800
Subject: Re: "This generation ...": Mk 13:34 par.; Mk 9:1 par.


The reference is the Ramayana.  Panta is from the Sanskrit of the same 
construction.  Pent, pant, panch -- all the same base, only different 
inflections.   Linguists get PhDs making distinctions where there are none.  
Their careers depend on it. 
All the best,

The Rev. David R. Graham
Resident, Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy, Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning


From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:36:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Exegetical Method


Do you know a train of thinking which isn't tautological?

All the best,


The Rev. David R. Graham
Resident, Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy, Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning


From: Rod Decker <rod.j.decker@uwrf.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 20:39:58 -0600
Subject: Aland's early text 

> FROM: Timster132@aol.com
> Yes.  I'd like to ellaborate, if I may.  Aland's interpretation of early
papyri development is that there were degrees of faithfulness to the
examplars, based on the scribes' abilities and their opinion as to the
sacredness of the text.  The "SCRICT" scribes were excellent copiests and/or
believed the text they were copying was Scripture to some degree.  The
"NORMAL" scribes had average or better copying skills and may or may not have
not recognized their examplars as Scripture.  The "FREE" scribes either were
not the greatest copiests or they felt free to adapt the wording of the text
to local regionalisms, dialects, or simply used paraphrase to better
communicate the message of the letter/gospel they were copying.

Tim, are these Aland's explanations or yours? From my reading of Aland, he
says nothing about "SCRICT scribes [who] believed the text they were
copying was Scripture to some degree."

I think that his reconstruction of the history of the text is the best yet
proposed, esp. in the 2-4th C. period [sorry, Maurice!], but his
classification of the early papyri as strict/normal/free stops short of the
association with a doctrine of Scripture you've made, Tim. Likewise with
the suggestion that they "used paraphrase to better communicate the message
of the letter/gospel."

If I've misread Aland, please let me know--or if these ideas are in the 2d
ed. of Aland's text (I've read only the 1st ed.).


Rod Decker                             Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT                                Kansas City, Missouri


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 22:56:45 -0500
Subject: a final note from me on midrash 

TO: kenneth@sybase.com (Kenneth Litwak)
FROM: Timster132@aol.com

Hi Ken.

   I just wanted to add one last note on midrash, if I could.  I particularly
wanted to say how it effected my exegesis, theology and sermons.
   In accepting Mark as a midrash on the Old Testament, instead of trying to
determine what the historical Jesus did or said, I  have found myself
concentrating on the power of the story of the gospel in itself.
   And as I did I found it very liberating.  Instead of using "Bible facts"
about Jesus to make my arguments, I stopped trying to "prove" Christianity
and trust in the story to have its own power to persuade people to believe.
 I could allow the story to be told, and not feel like I had to defend it.
    In preaching, I do my own midrash on the midrash, that is, I usually
re-tell Biblical stories, weaving elements of the audience's culture within
the story.  I also add present day stories that echo the message of the NT
Gospel midrash.
   There are limitations, I have found.  Stories are indicative, and not
propositional, and lend themselves better to parable, mythos, miracle
stories, etc.  Its more difficult to use this approach with Paul's letters
and torah. When preaching from Paul's letters, I can sometimes create stories
based on the text.  For example, with a little imagination, it isn't hard to
tell a story about a disruptive worship service at Corinth, since Paul gives
us quite a few details with which one could create a scenario, and
communicate Paul's message effectively with it.
    In retelling the story, I feel I am participating in the oral tradition
of kerygma.  And I have found people, in general, respond well to story.  
    As far as midrash effecting my exegesis, we have covered some of that
ground, so I won't rehash old stuff.  Basically, I have learned to accept the
early church witness as it is, a first century, Jewish way and method of
communicating truth, different from our modern methods and standards.  Being
aware that I had been bringing (and still do bring) 20th century expectations
and standards to the text helped me take a step back and (possibly) be more
objective about what the texts were saying.
    For example, because of seing the gospels as midrash, I could fully
embrace the virgin birth, with its incredibly powerful symbolism and message
within this 1st century witness, and not worry about its value historically.
 Where the fundamentalists insist that one must believe in the literal virgin
birth, and the early liberal tradition dismissed it completely because of its
dubious historicity, I reject these both these positions.  What is important
from an exegesis standpoint is perceiving what the 1st century witness was
saying about who Jesus was for them, and then hermeneutically applying this
by asking how this informs us as to how we perceive who Jesus is.  In that
the virgin birth is one of several ways the NT talks about how Jesus is God's
Son, we can ask ourselves how we understand Jesus as God's Son and how
Mt/Lk's understanding informs us, along with other NT understandings (such as
"adoption" by Paul and in early Acts) and even other understandings from
different times and places (including our own culture).

    As for theology, the whole process of understanding midrash effects my
Christology.  My proclamation has changed from "Jesus is God", a statement
which can be argued, to "I see God in Jesus", which is my experience and the
experience of the NT writers-- and this cannot be argued, but rather
explored.  It seems to me a more effective way of doing theology and
evangelism, rather than getting tangled up in endless debates and arguments
that end up showing less of the love of God and more of my pride and
    I realize that this undermines much of fundamentalism's methodology of
"proving" doctrine by prooftexting.  And that evangelicals may feel
uncomfortable with the lack of utilizing historical data about the historical
Jesus to "ground" the faith. And I agree with evangelicals that the gospels
are based on the historical Jesus.  But I no longer feel the need to resort
to "proving" Christianity and the gospel message.  It proves itself by its
own power.  And trying to prove it actually is counter-active to its
purpose... to believe, to trust God.  While historicity may add to the gospel
message's credibility, it doesn't help us trust in God.  For many people
today, it is a bigger leap of faith to believe all of the contents of the
gospels are historical than to simply trust the message of the gospel that
God is loving and forgives.

    I don't expect you to respond to this, another long discertation that was
intended as a simple wrapping up of the topic of midrash.  I know the value
of your time.  I just thought it was important to finish my thoughts on the
value of interpreting the gospels as midrash by noted its impact on my
exegesis, preaching and theology.

   Tim Staker


From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 23:47:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Objective Genitive of PISTIS

I would like to thank Bruce Terry for a well reasoned response to my 
argument about objective gentives with PISTIS. His note pointed to an 
obvious flaw in my argument as presented in my earlier note. My statement 
that PISTIS does not take an accusative case object was careless. Of 
course it does, and I was quite aware of this fact; I was simply careless 
in the wording of my statement. I should have said: PISTIS does not take 
an accusative case object representing the person who is the object of 
trust/faith. That is, when the verb is used with a meaning similar to 
'believe' or 'trust' rather than 'entrust', the person who is the object 
of this believe or trust is expressed in the dative case or by a 
prepositional phrase. Of course there are cases such as the ones David cited:

1) PISTEUW can take an accusative.
    John 11:26  PISTEUEIS TOUTO
    I Cor. 13:7 PANTA PISTEUEI

In John 11:26 TOUTO represents the STATEMENT Jesus has just made, not 
Jesus himself. It is the statement believe, not the person believed, 
which is stated in the accusative case.

In 1 Cor. 13:7 it is again the thing believed, not a person believed, 
which is expressed in the accusative case.

In 1 John 4:16 it is the fact that God loves us which is believed, not 
God. The author says that we believe the love which God has for us 
we believe God (though presumably he would assume that we do). 
Natuaraly, the thing believed (God's love) is expressed in the 
accusative case.

David has correctly surmised that PISTIS is a ditransitive verb (i.e. a 
verb which allows two objects). When two noun (or noun phrases) appear as 
objects of PISTIS, one expressing what is believed and the other 
expressing who is believed, the one expressing the person will be dative 
rather than accusative case. When a noun representing a person is used 
with PISTIS and it appears in the ACCUSATIVE case, the meaning of the 
verb changes to something like 'entrust.' BAG points this out.

[For those of you who want to compare this note to David's, all of what I 
have said so far addresses issues raised under number 1 in his note.]

For now I am going to skip over the second part of David's note:

2) The nouns related to verbs that take their objects in the dative can have
     objective genitives modifying them.

I hope to respond to this in more detail later. Once again, however, the 
statement in my note to which he was responding could have been much more 
accurately stated.

Let me move now to the third part of his note:

3) There are some clear examples of objective genitives with PISTIS.

Mark 11:22 ECETE PISTIN QEOU             kernal: believe God
Acts 3:16  TH PISTEI TOU ONOMATOS AUTOU          believe his name

Mark 11:22 is, admittedly, easy to read as 'have faith in God,' but I 
wonder if this reading does not come, once again, from our theological 
presuppositions. There are other options. It could mean have faith from 
God, or have God's faith (i.e. that faith which God inspires/demands). 
Admittedly, these readings are difficult to square with our 
presuppositions. Notice that Matthew does not include this statement.

Acts 3:16 actually has a different reading which fits quite easily into 
the context. The statement which David cited [TH PISTEI TOU ONOMATOS 
AUTOU] precedes by half a verse the following noun phrase:

	the faith which is through him [Jesus]

The faith under discussion is specifically faith [received?] 'through 
Jesus'. The construction which David cited [TH PISTEI TOU ONOMATOS 
AUTOU] can be read in this same way: faith through/by means of/from his 
name. It is not at all necessary to see it as an objective genitive.

Thank you, David, for a very well reasoned response to my suggestions. I 
will have to dedicate some time tomorrow to responding to section two of 
your note. I apologize for my careless wording, and thank you for 
exposing the weaknesses that wording creates. This is the way progress is 
often made.

Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 00:55:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Aland's early text 

TO: rod.j.decker@uwrf.edu, b-greek@virginia.edu
FROM: Timster132@aol.com

  Rod, you are correct in your understanding of Aland.  I was infusing some
of my interpretation there, and I failed to note that.
  Thanks for the clarification.



From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 00:55:06 -0500
Subject: Re: "This generation ...": Mk... 

TO: merovin@halcyon.com, b-greek@virginia.edu


   Your imagination is very gifted, and I might add entertaining.  The
connections you make are on an intuitive level, and I appreciate that.
    Still, I admit that your conjectures lack any convincing evidence if one
is seeking historical actualities.  And yet, the connections you make are
worthwhile, and may indicate ancient relationships between certain cultures
and people that we tend to isolate in our minds.
   I also feel that the relationships you posit about words and their origins
operate on an intuitive and maybe subconscious level of the speakers, and
that this is an element of consideration in philology and NT studies.  



End of b-greek-digest V1 #633


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