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b-greek-digest V1 #675




b-greek-digest            Thursday, 20 April 1995      Volume 01 : Number 675

In this issue:

        Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne
        Gal. 3:8--An Optative? 
        Re: Eph. 5:16 - Historical Context
        To: B-GREEK@virginia.edu
        Re: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne
        1 Cor. 15:29
        Re: Gal. 3:8--An Optative?
        Re: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne
        UBS3, UBS4, NA26, NA27
        Redaction:  Who and Why
        Re: Computer Gk texts
        Re: Redaction: Who and Why
        Re: UBS3, UBS4, NA26, NA27

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 13:42:10 PDT
Subject: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne

   Has anyone else tired to send a message to Mr. Hahne?  My mailer
daemon kicked my mail back, saying I had a bogus address.  Thanks.

Ken

------------------------------

From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:26:00 CST
Subject: Gal. 3:8--An Optative? 

A query for those among you who are good in morphology and syntax:

Gal. 3:8 reads in part:

PROIDOUSA DE (H GRAFW (OTI EK POSTEWS DIKAIOI TA EQNH (O QEOS . . .

"Now the scripture having foreseen that God 'would justify' the Gentiles by
faith . . ."

This is translated by most English translations as if DIKAIOI is a subjunctive
or an optative.  The NASV does have a marginal note saying the literal
rendering is "justifies," which would seem to indicate that for those
translators at least the addition of "would" is just an accommodation to the
needs of English grammar.  

Probably due to the translation "would" I had originally taken DIKAIOI as one
of the few optatives in the New Testament.  A check of the _Analytical Greek
Lexicon_ reveils that for -OW contract verbs the indicative, subjunctive, and
optative apparently have the same -OI ending.

Robertson in _Word Pictures_ says this is indicative, as does Vincent in his
_Word Studies_ and Friberg and Friberg in their _Analytical Greek New
Testament_.  Shall I add Rienecker and Rogers in the _Linguistic Key_ and Han
in his _Parsing Guide_, as well as the _Analytical Greek Lexicon_, which all
say the same thing?

Nevertheless, I cannot shake the feeling that this is an optative.  Perhaps
this is because I know too little about the optative.  But Hadley in his Greek
Grammar says, "The optative often expresses *possibility with past
expectation*--that which could be looked for, as a thing that *might be*
realized, at some past time" (p, 271, emphasis his).  This would describe this
passage.  And Burton notes that the optative was used after (OTI in indirect
discourse.  Could "foreseen" introduce indirect discourse?

This brings me to my questions:
1. Can this passage really morphologically be understood as containing an
optative or a subjunctive?
2. Would there be a difference in meaning if it was understood as indicative
versus a non-indicative mood?
3. Even if there is a difference in meaning, taking the indicative as an
unmarked mood, can there be such a thing as a potential indicative?

Thanks for your help on this.

********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769
********************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Ken Penner <kpenner@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:50:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Eph. 5:16 - Historical Context

At 09:13 PM 4/19/95 -0400, Painter2B@aol.com wrote:

>I am doing a historial context study on Eph. 5:16 and have hit (almost) a
>dead end.  Can anyone point me toward some source material (i.e.
>Talmud/Mishnah, pseudapigraphic writings & etc.) or any search tools which
>might point me in the direction toward shedding some light on the first
>century understanding of "evil days" as referenced by Paul in this passage?
>
>I have looked at Strack-Billerbeck.  There is no entry for this verse.  Any
>help is appreciated.

This may seem obvious, and it's not extra-canonical, but since you didn't mention Amos 5:13...
The verbal parallels make me think that the author was bringing in some ideas from Amos 5: "because the times are evil" (5:13), the "prudent" man (5:13), being silent (5:13), drinking wine (5:11), hating him who speaks uprightly (5:10), making the light dark (5:8)...

Ken Penner
Regent College

------------------------------

From: Ivo Bosticky <bosticky@elec.uq.oz.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 9:26:42 EST
Subject: To: B-GREEK@virginia.edu

unsubscribe bosticky@s1.elec.uq.oz.au

------------------------------

From: Gary Meadors <gmeadors@epix.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 19:28:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne

On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Kenneth Litwak wrote:

>    Has anyone else tired to send a message to Mr. Hahne?  My mailer
> daemon kicked my mail back, saying I had a bogus address.  Thanks.
> 
> Ken
> 

Sorry if address didn't work.  I wrote it down in the seminar...perhaps a 
scribal error.  I will check tomorrow, perhaps call and clarify it.

Later.....

------------------------------

From: Rod Decker <rod.j.decker@uwrf.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 18:29:14 -0500
Subject: 1 Cor. 15:29

In article <a6.53173.60.0CBFD7BC@mandic.ax.apc.org>, Guy Marquardt
<guy.marquardt@mandic.ax.apc.org> wrote:

> Anyway, my question has to do with 1 Corinthians 15:29.  What does Paul
> mean by the expression _hoi baptizomenoi huper twn nekrwn_ ...
> _baptizontai huper autwn_?
>
> What are the major existing theories?  I remember a few vague ideas but

The locus classicus of imponderables! I doubt we'll be of much help to you
here. We certainly won't solve it, of that I'm certain. I'll summarize a
few things worth noting (at least IMHO!).

>From the context of this chapter it appears that there was a group in the
church at first-century Corinth who were denying the resurrection in
general and the resurrection of Jesus Christ in particular. The apostle has
argued vigorously against that view in the first half of the chapter.
Beginning in verse 29 he broaches another line of argument to show why
their denial of the resurrection is wrong.

He refers to a practice that he calls "baptism for the dead." This was a
ceremony that was apparently being practiced by some in Corinth, presumably
by people in the church. Paul's argument is that such a practice makes
absolutely no sense if there is no resurrection of the dead. IF there is no
resurrection, THEN why are people baptized for the dead?

It may well be that this is the most difficult verse in the entire Bible.
There have been more than 40 interpretations proposed. (I don't have time
to summarize them for this purpose.) That, in itself, is instructive, for,
as Gordon Fee points out, "when there is such a wide divergence of opinion,
no one knows what in fact was going on." (Fee, _1Cor._, NICNT, 763)
Although it is a great disappointment to some, I think we must be honest
and agree with that assessment. We simply do not know to what it was that
Paul refers. (Which means that there isn't much need to know all 40+
interpretations! They are all based on guess-work and an assumption that we
CAN know the details which neither the biblical text nor extra-biblical
material have recorded!)

My conclusion is that whatever this baptism was, it is not a practice that
God intended or instituted. It is never found in any other church in the
NT, in the early history of the church, "nor in any orthodox Christian
community in the centuries that immediately followed; nor are there
parallels or precedents in pagan religion." This is a genuine idiosyncrasy
in the history of the church, known and practiced by some in the Corinthian
community. (Fee, 764)

The point Paul is making in this verse is reasonably clear: what some
people in Corinth believed affected how they lived. The doctrine of the
resurrection and this baptismal practice are related. Their belief does not
have to be true for Paul to make his point. They acted in accord with what
they believed.

It is prob. obvious from the citations above, but I recommend Fee's
discussion as the best I've read.

Rod

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodney J. Decker                       Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT                                    15800 Calvary Rd.
                                        Kansas City, Missouri 64147
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 



------------------------------

From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 18:53:23 -0500 (GMT-0500)
Subject: Re: Gal. 3:8--An Optative?

On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:

> A query for those among you who are good in morphology and syntax:
> 
> Gal. 3:8 reads in part:
> 
> PROIDOUSA DE (H GRAFW (OTI EK POSTEWS DIKAIOI TA EQNH (O QEOS . . .
> 
> "Now the scripture having foreseen that God 'would justify' the Gentiles by
> faith . . ."
> 
> This is translated by most English translations as if DIKAIOI is a subjunctive
> or an optative.  The NASV does have a marginal note saying the literal
> rendering is "justifies," which would seem to indicate that for those
> translators at least the addition of "would" is just an accommodation to the
> needs of English grammar.  
> 
> Probably due to the translation "would" I had originally taken DIKAIOI as one
> of the few optatives in the New Testament.  A check of the _Analytical Greek
> Lexicon_ reveils that for -OW contract verbs the indicative, subjunctive, and
> optative apparently have the same -OI ending.
> 
> Robertson in _Word Pictures_ says this is indicative, as does Vincent in his
> _Word Studies_ and Friberg and Friberg in their _Analytical Greek New
> Testament_.  Shall I add Rienecker and Rogers in the _Linguistic Key_ and Han
> in his _Parsing Guide_, as well as the _Analytical Greek Lexicon_, which all
> say the same thing?
> 
> Nevertheless, I cannot shake the feeling that this is an optative.  Perhaps
> this is because I know too little about the optative.  But Hadley in his Greek
> Grammar says, "The optative often expresses *possibility with past
> expectation*--that which could be looked for, as a thing that *might be*
> realized, at some past time" (p, 271, emphasis his).  This would describe this
> passage.  And Burton notes that the optative was used after (OTI in indirect
> discourse.  Could "foreseen" introduce indirect discourse?
> 
> This brings me to my questions:
> 1. Can this passage really morphologically be understood as containing an
> optative or a subjunctive?
> 2. Would there be a difference in meaning if it was understood as indicative
> versus a non-indicative mood?
> 3. Even if there is a difference in meaning, taking the indicative as an
> unmarked mood, can there be such a thing as a potential indicative?

Well, Bruce, you're usually ANSWERING, not ASKING the questions, but when 
you DO ask, you don't go for any piddling, garden-variety question, do you?

In my opinion (no more than that):

(1) Morphologically, the form DIKAO^I could be either indicative, 
subjunctive, or optative. If indicative, the ending would be a 
contraction of O + EI; if subjunctive, of O + HI; and if optative, of O + 
OI.
 
(2) I don't see the subjunctive as a viable alternative here in a 
substantive clause which as a whole functions as the object of the 
participle PROIDOUSA; there's no kind of subordination here that would 
under any circumstances I can see require a subjunctive. The choice then 
is between indicative and optative. In classical Attic, the optative 
would be normal in a context where the main verb (in this instance, 
PROEUHGGELISATO) is in a past tense, although classical Greek not 
infrequently uses an indicative here even where the optative is, in fact, 
more common. However, the optative is really a thing of the past for the 
most part, although it is not really dead and is used by some more 
sophisticated writers (Philo, for instance) and, of course, comes back 
into currency with the Attic revival of the second century. All of which 
would make me decide this instance, if I had to decide it, in favor of 
the indicative.

(3) Can there be such a thing as a "potential indicative"? The nearest 
thing to it, I'd say, is the imperfect indicative + AN in the result 
clause of a contrary-to-fact condition, as:

	OUK AN EPOIOUN TAUTA, EI MH DESMWTHS HN.
	"I wouldn't be doing these things, if I weren't a prisoner."

However, it seems to me that the reason that English translators turn 
DIKAIOI into "would justify" in Gal 3:8 is to acknowledge the past tense 
of the main verb--which is, ironically (I think), the same reason why 
classical Attic used the optative when that main verb was in the past 
tense. For instance, we say in the present tense: "I approve of this;" 
reported at second hand, this becomes, "he says that he approves of 
this;' but put that main verb into the past tense and you MAY get: "he 
said that he approves of this," but you may just as likely get: "he said 
that he would approve of this." So it seems to me that English usage is 
as flexible as the classical Attic Greek is. In the case of Gal 3:8, my 
guess is that DIKAIOI is present indicative, and that the translators who 
make it "would justify" are making the normal adjustment that our own 
language makes in this context.

It's an interesting question. I think if it were Plutarch writing a 
century later, I'd say it might be (is?) an optative; as it's Paul 
writing in the mid 1st century, I'll say it is an indicative.


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


------------------------------

From: WHEIDLER@trevecca.edu
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 19:07:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne

Ken,

I tried earlier today and it was sent back to me also.  I tried a second
time and it worked, though I changed one thing.

In the message the address was "Hahne@Epas,untoronto.edu".  I changed
the comma between Epas and untoronto to a period and sent it out around
3:45 today.

Try this address, it might work.  I have not received a reply as of yet.

Wayne

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Subject: Getting the ETS paper from Harry Hahne
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   Has anyone else tired to send a message to Mr. Hahne?  My mailer
daemon kicked my mail back, saying I had a bogus address.  Thanks.

Ken

------------------------------

From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:49:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: UBS3, UBS4, NA26, NA27

May I heartily second Nichael Cramer's brief remarks on these editions--
they all have the same text.  The apparatus in each of the two series
was revised, as he also said.  The differences between them is not
one of scholarship, not even in the apparatus; they simply have different
purposes.  NA has always had as its goal the presentation of as wide a
view of the textual tradition as possible, which it does with a minimum
of space, due to an ingenious set of symbols, abbreviations, groupings,
etc.  The GNT is aimed at translators, and presents a limited selection
of texts with variants; however, for many of these it gives much more 
information than is in NA.  [I for one have often been puzzled over the
choice of texts chosen as "significant for translators," but they
didn't ask me.]

May I also endorse Larry Hurtado's bibliographic recommendations,
which will give a better (or perhaps less self-serving) than the
explanations by the editos involved in NA26-27 and GNT3-4.
	["perspective" is missing before "than", 2 lines above.]


Edward Hobbs

------------------------------

From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 18:13:56 PDT
Subject: Redaction:  Who and Why

- --:798427315:405209778:414646313:-1303067230
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Friends,

Below is the concluson of a statement on this matter.  I am thankful to the 
participants here for suggesting both the need and the direction of it.  A 
zipped ASCII file containing the entire statement is attached.  You are 
welcome to use as needed.

All the best,

David

What was the intent of the redactors?  The overall intent of both
the first and the final redactors was to protect the family of
Jesus.  The first redactor had another intent as well.  It was to
support the developing religion on a structure of Trinitarian
monotheism.  There were reasons for choosing this structure,
reasons I will not here detail.  Let it be remembered, however,
that Trinitarian monotheism was a departure from the original
Christian and Christ-ian theological structure of Unitarian
monotheism.

What can we say, then, about the final redaction of the NT as,
roughly, our Bible has it?  The church has always referred to the
first four parts of it as "the Gospel of our Lord."  The word
Gospel is in the singular, not the plural.  We do not have four
Gospels.  We have one Gospel redacted to that form in four
parts.  The fourth part is the key to the other three.  Since the
fourth part of the Gospel, the key, is the most historically
specific, we should take it as also the most historically accurate
in our scientific sense of that term and the most spiritually
instructive in our philosophical and theological senses of that
term.

The fourth part of the Gospel is in fact the key to the code of the
entire NT.  It was made to be that.  The redaction process was an
encryption process with that procedure.  The overall purpose of
the redaction/encryption process was to protect the family of
Jesus.  Protect them from whom?  From ecclesiastical
hierarchies then and now.  I assume one should understand why
the redactors would have that end in view for their work.

Who was the first or seminal redactor?  My guess is that it was
an educated eremite who came to Jerusalem and possibly
Antioch from Sinai around the middle of the Second Century
and communicated two things:  (1) a first cut for an orthodox
canon, and (2) the rudiments of a Trinitarian theological
structure.  This would have been a personality of extraordinary
splendor.  There are reports of just such an individual in
Jerusalem at just this time.  I suspect this was the purpose of
their visit.

Who were the final redactors of the NT?  They were scions of
Stoical/Pythagorean monasticism.  The opening cantos of the
fourth part of the Gospel demonstrate that.  However, they also
were aware of much more than they included in their product,
and what they excluded from it they did for specific and clearly
defined reasons.  The great lacuna in the chronology of Jesus'
life -- the major portion of it, in fact ! -- is visible from the
cauterization of text on the near and nether sides of it.  It is just
this expanse of detail in the life of Jesus which the final
redactors considered a threat to his family and which they
therefore removed.  I am sure that in context they were right to
do this.  But today a condition they did not anticipate stands
present and this condition makes a reemergence of the excluded
details of Jesus' life desirable for the welfare of humanity while
also being not a danger to his family.  And so those details are
gradually emerging.

The company of final redactors of the NT included members of
Jesus' family.  Also included were descendants of Saivite
religion that supported Greco-Egyptian-African culture.  And
finally, this company included Buddhist monastics from the
South of France and the environs of Alexandria.

- -------------------------------------
The Rev. David R. Graham
Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy
Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning
EADEM MUTATA RESURGO

E-mail: merovin@halcyon.com
Date: 04/06/95
Time: 13:41:10
- -------------------------------------

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- --:798427315:405209778:414646313:-1303067230--


------------------------------

From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:35:14 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Re: Computer Gk texts

On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Gary Meadors wrote:
> A most interesting analysis of computerized Greek texts was made by Harry 
> Hahne of Ontario Theo. Sem, "Interpretive Implications of Using 
> Bible-Search Software for New Testament Grammatical Analysis," at the Nov 
> 94 ETS in Chicago.  He demonstrated that there are 
> a number of problems in these data bases which those who use them for 
> text analysis should be aware.

I think Harry mentioned my own experiences, but just in case he didn't:

Many programs I've come across are not based directly on the Fribergs' 
database but on the CCAT MorphGNT which also includes the dictionary form 
of each word. (The CCAT text is based on the Fribergs' work mind you).

Anyway, in my own work I came across a numerous of errors in the 
lemmatization of the CCAT text (some obvious, some obscure---I gave Harry 
the details of how I found them; again, I don't know if he mentioned them).
CCAT were informed of all the errors and I'm sure they fixed them all. 
But obviously that didn't help the already available programs that were 
based on the old CCAT text.

I became aware of this when I posted some statistics to this mailing list 
only to receive a number of letters saying I'd got my figures wrong. It 
turns out that all the people that wrote to me were using programs based 
on the old CCAT text and it was hence their figures that were wrong.

James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
Computing Assistant, University Computing Services
University of Western Australia, Perth, AUSTRALIA


------------------------------

From: "James D. Ernest" <ernest@mv.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 22:46:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Redaction: Who and Why

> The company of final redactors of the NT included members of
> Jesus' family.  Also included were descendants of Saivite
> religion that supported Greco-Egyptian-African culture.  And
> finally, this company included Buddhist monastics from the
> South of France and the environs of Alexandria.

Weren't there also some UFO sightings around the same period?
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
James D. Ernest                            Joint Doctoral Program
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA      Andover-Newton/Boston College
Internet: ernest@mv.mv.com           Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts


------------------------------

From: Nichael Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 22:59:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: UBS3, UBS4, NA26, NA27

On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Edward Hobbs wrote:
>     [..UBS3/4 vs NA26/27...]
>  ... [I for one have often been puzzled over the
> choice of texts chosen as "significant for translators," but they
> didn't ask me.]

With regard to this specific point. (and to suggest one other obvious 
book that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere in this thread):  Metzger's _A 
Textual Commentary on the Greek NT_.  (This book was intended as a 
companion to the UBS3 and has a section explaining the reasoning behind 
the editors decisions on each of the 1440 variant readings given by the  
UBS3 [as well as some 600 additional variants not included in the UBS3].)

As an aside, does anyone know if there will be an "update" bring the 
Commentary in line with the UBS4?
 
> May I also endorse Larry Hurtado's bibliographic recommendations,
> which will give a better (or perhaps less self-serving) than the
> explanations by the editos involved in NA26-27 and GNT3-4.
> 	["perspective" is missing before "than", 2 lines above.]

Perhaps we should start a fund to get Prof Hobbs a better editor?

;-)
 
> Edward Hobbs


Nichael
nichael@sover.net

------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #675
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