b-greek-digest V1 #706

b-greek-digest             Saturday, 13 May 1995       Volume 01 : Number 706

In this issue:

        Re: Searching for apples...
        Re: Greek transliteration conventions
        Student bloopers
        Re: WID (conventions)
        Re: more inclusivity 
        Re: bloopers 
        Modifications to Transliteration 
        Transliteration ideas
        Critical Apparatus 
        Re: Critical Apparatus
        Company name for FlashWorks 
        Corrections for BBG 
        Re: Critical Apparatus 


From: Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 06:45:47 +0000 
Subject: Re: Searching for apples...

Please forgive cross-posting. This topic crosses many list lines, I suppose.

1. The Hebrew word <heb>tapuach</heb> is probably better rendered into
English with some form of "citrus" fruit. Suggestions have been: "ethrog"
(Herb Basser musing from shirhashirim rabba ch2);
"peach/citron/quince/apricot" with "apricot" being the most popular
alternative to "apple" (Alan Cooper based on Tristram, the Moldenkes, who
preferred "apricot--prunus armeniaca", and Feliks who likes "common
apple--prunus malus"); and "apricot" or "quince" (Bob Haak citing Anchor
Bible Dictionary article, hereinafter abbreviated as "ABD"); "orange" is
not among any of the alternatives for rendering <heb>tapuach</heb> (Alan

2. The cultivation of apples as we know them today is 30 years old or so
(Alan Cooper) and is different in Syria-Palestine during biblical times
(Bob Haak noting ABD II:806f). The hill country and shephela in Israel were
suitable for pre-industrialized apple agriculture (i.e., "wild
apples"--Alan Cooper).

3. Humorous pauses at the Garden of Eden were taken. No one knows the type
of "fruit" Adam and Eve ate in the Hebrew Bible--it is designated as the
"fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2.17
expanded in 3.3). Interestingly, they "sewed _fig-tree_ leaves" together
for covering, being ashamed of their nakedness after eating the forbidden
fruit. "Fig-tree" renders <heb>te'enah</heb> or <lat>ficus carica</lat>
(Brown, Driver, Briggs, 1061).

4. In reference to Canticles 8.5:
      "Under the apple tree I roused you;
      there your mother conceived you,
      there she who was in labor gave you birth."
Most interesting to me was the correspondence brought out with Apollo's
birth on Delos, where Leto, Apollo's mother, wraps arms around a date palm
and kneeled for the birth (Diane Arnson Svarlien in reference to Homeric
Hymn to Apollo, 115-19). Leaning back is adviced while giving birth (Jenny
S. Clay in reference to G. Most, Callimachus and Herophilus, Hermes 109

5. No ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek proverb has been discovered which
would serve as a "direct" background to "an apple falls not far from the
tree". My musing for an "indirect" background to the German proverb would
be ancient customs of giving birth, the popularity of "apple" as a fruit in
Western culture, and the inheritance of father/mother characteristics by
children found in almost every culture. The proverb takes a twist in Middle
aged Europe, supporting the view that a baker's son becomes a baker, etc.
(original web article suggests this last interpretation).

1. Apples weren't so popular among the Hebrews, but more popular among
pre-Western cultures? Apples were considered "elite" fruit?

2. The story of the "apple" being the fruit which Eve ate arose within the
context of the Christian church?

3. Ancient customs on giving birth--usually under a tree?

Thank you for your time and assistance,

| Shaughn Daniel               zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de |\
| Tuebingen, Germany                                            | |
|                            ~~~~~                              | |
| I put tape on the mirrors in my house so I don't accidentally | |
| walk through into another dimension.---Steven Wright          | |
*---------------------------------------------------------------* |


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 05:37:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Greek transliteration conventions

On Thu, 11 May 1995, Stephen Carlson wrote:

> Carl W Conrad wrote:
> > > [soc.culture.greek system]
> > > Upper case:  A B G D E Z H 8 I K L M N 5 O 7 P S   T Y F X 4 W
> > > Lower case   a b g d e z h 0 i k l m v 3 o n p c,s t u f x y w
> >                                    To my eyes, however, 8 for Theta 
> > really looks PERITTON, and 4y for Psi probably is closer to the modern 
> > hand-script convention for Psi.
> Did you mean PERITTON as in "remarkable" or as in "redundant"?

Sorry, perhaps I'm using the word more in the "classical" sense of 
"odd-ball," "out-of-whack"--as opposed to ARTION, "even," "balanced." 
These are the adjectives applied to ARIQMOI, and in classical usage, the 
word PERITTOS,-H,-ON tends to have negative connotations (as in the 
Pythagorean table of opposites) or irrationality.

> Which system is more readable?
> Outw gap hganhcev o 8eos ton kocmov wcte tov Yiov tov monogenh edwkev
> iva nas o nicteuwv eis autov mh anolhtai all exh zwhv aiwviov
> I suppose it would take some real getting used to the s.c.g. system.

If, in fact, you were using the s.c.g. sample above to create the sample 
below, you have given evidence of the problem: you've written TOV KOSMON 
for TON KOSMON and TON hUIOU for TON hUION. This little exercise 
illustrates one of the little things that I think have to be stressed 
when one teaches the Greek alphabet: that the lower-case characters for 
Nu and Upsilon must be distinguished carefully from each other, such that 
Nu is always sharply cornered at the bottom and Upsilon unmistakably 
rounded at the bottom. I think it's also good when drawing the characters 
by hand to make sure there's a sharply cornered hook on the upper left of 
the lower-case Nu--so that one can readily see its derivation from an 
upper-case Nu with a truncated left vertical stroke (to adapt it the 
better to cursive writing). On my screen "U" and "V" look too similar, 
although "u" and "v" do not. 

Perhaps the characters differ sufficiently from one communication 
software program to another that the problems I observe don't show up in 
other software fonts used for messaging. 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: Gary Meadors <gmeadors@epix.net>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 08:51:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Student bloopers

It is the end of term papers and student blooper time...This is 
appropriate in light of our gender discussion.  A student writing on 1 
Tim 2:12 asked:  "...is Paul restricting women from the task of teaching 
men or excreting authority over men...."


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:19:35 -0700
Subject: Re: WID (conventions)

Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu> wrote:

>Greek Transliteration for B-Greek

>Remember that the purpose of our transliteration is NOT to
>provide a text that can be readily transformed from ASCII
>into RTF and into your own preferred Greek font for Mac,
>DOS, or Windoze; rather, the purpose is to establish a
>convention that will be mutually convenient and consistent
>for all list-users to recognize and apply. Below I suggest 3

	Of the alternatives Carl mentions, the first (included below), 
IMHO, would be the most adequate for our needs on B-Greek.  It is based 
on a modified form of the Beta Code system which is a de facto standard 
for encoding Greek for access by computer programs.  Carl's adaptations 
of the Beta Code simplifies the latter by using the lower-case "h" as 
the rough breathing symbol (If I recall correctly, it was someone else 
who first suggested this.) and by employing the lower-case "i" after 
the letter for iota subscript.  

	The use of the upper case letters in the main part of the words 
is desireable, IMO, since our quotes of the Greek are most usually 
embedded in English-language text, and the larger letters of the caps 
serve to set the Greek off much as italics do when foreign laguages are 
quoted in printed material.  The alternative of using underlines (e.g. 
_xaris_) at the beginning and ending of a quote of Greek in lower-case 
letters seems not very satisfactory.

	The system used by the native Greek speakers, cited on this list 
by Stephen Carlson, would probably be very servicable for that sort of 
communication.  It seems fairly easy to read.  Nevertheless, it is a 
system that is quite a bit less than intuitive and would probably 
occasion problems for new members (to say nothing of old members who 
would have to learn to type "n" for pi, with "N" for mayascule nu, "8" 
for theta and "4" for psi, etc.).

	Whereas I realize that it is beyond the scope of this sort of 
discussion to make any one system "official" (We usually manage to 
decipher list members' Greek no matter how it's encoded.), I do think 
that the system Carl outlines is one of the most serviceable.  If I 
might make one suggestion, however, I would like to see the asterisk 
(*) also recognized as it is in Beta Code to designate a capitalized 
letter where that may be significant.

Regards to all,

    David L. Moore                    Director of Education
    Miami, FL, USA                Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com               of the Assemblies of God

Carl Conrad's suggested system follows:

>(1) UC-char/LC-diac: Use upper-case to represent Greek
>characters, lower-case to represent rough-breathing
>(smooth-breathing being the default and unmarked),
>iota-subscript. If (and only if) accents are essential in
>passage cited: acute = /; grave = \; circumflex = @ (all
>placed AFTER the vowel or diphthong).
>A     alpha
>B     beta
>G     gamma
>D     delta
>E     epsilon
>Z     zeta
>H     eta
>Q     theta
>I     iota
>K     kappa
>L     lambda
>M     mu
>N     nu
>C     xi
>O     omicron
>P     pi
>R     rho
>S     sigma (with no distinction of initial/medial & final)
>T     tau
>U     upsilon
>F     phi
>X     chi
>Y     psi
>W     omega
>h     rough breathing
>i     iota subscript
>/     acute accent (after vowel/diphthong)
>\     grave accent (after vowel/diphthong)
>@     circumflex (after vowel/diphthong)
>f     digamma (if ever needed to represent early Greek)
>q     koppa (if ever needed to represent early Greek)
>As everything is upper-case, there will be no orthographical
>distinction between proper/common nouns and adjectives, and
>therefore the diacritical marks will follow the characters
>even if the initial vowel or diphthong would otherwise be


From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:15:51 CST
Subject: Re: more inclusivity 

On Wed, 10 May 1995, Pat Tiller wrote:

>On Tue, 9 May 1995, Mari Olsen wrote:
>> When man is depressed, he loses interest in his wife and children.
>Of the three examples given, this one seems to me to be not only the most
>jarring, but wrong as well.  In such a phrase, I would expect "man" to be 
>unmarked for gender, while "wife and children" imply a specific gender 
>and specific social circumstances as well.

There is good reason that this is jarring.  Without an article "man" is
generic and is often intended to be inclusive, meaning "mankind" (or
"humankind" if you insist).  But "his wife and children" seems to refer to
someone specific and exclusively male.  One would expect "a man" in the
subordinate clause, not "man."  "A man" is both specific and exclusive. 
Thanks, Pat, for pointing this out.  Of course, Greek does not have an
indefinite article to mark this difference.

Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769


From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:32:34 -0400
Subject: Re: bloopers 

I was once listed in the bulletin of N.O. Baptist Seminary as Professor of
New Testament and Greef.

Carlton Winbery
La College


From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:50:48 CST
Subject: Modifications to Transliteration 

May I suggest two modifications to the key mapping that Carl has proposed?

First, it would be helpful to swap X and C.  In TGL Beta-code X maps to chi
(which it looks like) and C maps to xi.  This is just the opposite of a
transliteration scheme (with digraphs) used for over 100 years in biblical
studies.  In that scheme xi is represented by x (because the two sound alike;
both are ks), and chi is represented by ch (with the same sound as in German
ich and Scottish loch).  This fits even the way we spell the Greek letters in
English.  It also fits the SuperGreek keyboard.

May I submit that the English letter X looking like xi is not a primary
concern.  The English letter P looks like rho, and the English letter Y looks
like upsilon.  One goes to "looks-like" (on H for eta and Q for theta and W
for omega) only when there are no "sounds-like" letters available.

If this suggestion meets with any positive response, the following would be

xi  X
chi C

The second suggestion is the possibility of following the Duke Language
Toolkit in mapping the V to psi.  Most keyboards I have seen use either the Y
or the V for psi, because they "sort-of look like" a psi.  The problem with
using the Y is that it looks exactly like the capital upsilon and has
traditionally been used in transliterating that letter (as in "hyper").  The V
does not look quite as much like psi as the Y does, but it doesn't have the
disadvantage of looking like another letter (and thus confusing people)

This suggestion would result in:

psi V

If I am reading Greek, I can read XAPIC, but if I am reading transliteration,
I prefer to read CARIS.

Of course, if anyone wants to, they could use the old digraph system with ph,
th, ch, and ps and most everyone would understand this as well. 

Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769


From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 17:24:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Transliteration ideas

May I warmly (almost heatedly!) endorse Tim Finney's remarks, that
since accents, breathing, abd subscripts were not in the early MSS.
of our Biblical documents (and surely not in the autographs, though
I haven't seen them lately), why do we trouble so much about 
representing them in our email postings?  Surely we can make out what the
text is which we are discussing; and if we want to debate a breathing or
an accent (as we might, with Iounian!), we can easily recognize that we are
not doing textual criticism, but editing.  It's important in some
cases, but it isn't a text-variant issue.
	I confess liking Bruce Terry's suggested simplified scheme.
After seeing transliterations for many decades, there is something
very counter-intuitive about many methods proposed.
	But above all, we do muddle through with our chaos of methods,
so let's be wary of trying to impose a uniform method, where none exists
in the real world.  (Recommending:  Now, that's better!)

Edward Hobbs


From: John Calvin Hall <johnhall@gulf.net>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:43:24 -0300
Subject: Critical Apparatus 


My copy of the UBS4 just arrived, and I was disappointed to find out that
the only thing that changed was the Critical Apparatus. According to the
Preface, the "Wonderful Five" decided to do a little nip and tucking on the C.A.

My question is - - Is there something out there that is more complete than
what is given to us in the UBS4? I would be most eager to have it in my library.

- --

John Calvin Hall - `O doulos tou Kuriou 'Ihsou Xristou
Pensacola, Florida

                             *** Isaiah 66:5 ***


From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 15:22:26 PDT
Subject: Re: Critical Apparatus


   The more complete work is the Nestle-Aland, 27th ed (though I guess
some prefer the 26th -- I'm not clear on why that is, though I'd like
to be).  It lists many more readings, not just the readings that 
the UBS committee thinks are important.  I don't think I'll buy a UBS4
unless they change the font!  It's too hard on my eyes. 

Ken Litwak
Emeryville, CA
> Hello,
> My copy of the UBS4 just arrived, and I was disappointed to find out that
> the only thing that changed was the Critical Apparatus. According to the
> Preface, the "Wonderful Five" decided to do a little nip and tucking on the C.A.
> My question is - - Is there something out there that is more complete than
> what is given to us in the UBS4? I would be most eager to have it in my library.
> Thanks,
> --
> John Calvin Hall - `O doulos tou Kuriou 'Ihsou Xristou
> Pensacola, Florida
> johnhall@gulf.net
>                              *** Isaiah 66:5 ***


From: Bill Mounce <billm@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:22:14 -0700
Subject: Company name for FlashWorks 

Have any of you heard about a software company named:

Berean Software?

I am looking for a new company name. I have sold StarSoft Technologies.
Through it I wrote commercial non-educational software, and I want to
concentrate on educational software like FlashWorks.

Anyway, in the grammar I list StarSoft Technologies as the place to contact
for FlashWorks, and the grammar is going in for another printing, so I need
a new company name to replace StarSoft. Getting a company name is a pain in
the neck, but I want to make sure no one is using this.



From: Bill Mounce <billm@on-ramp.ior.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:23:51 -0700
Subject: Corrections for BBG 

Basics of Biblical Greek

My grammar is going in for another printing, and Zondervan has agreed to
let me put an index in it. It will be the fifth printing and probably not
available until September or later.  If there is any room left, I am going
to include the noun and adjective paradigms with the stem vowel with the
case ending: log-os, log-ou.

Anyway, I want to make sure this one is free of all typos. If you have a
second or later printing (see the preface) and still find errors, I would
love to hear about them. Thanks.

Zondervan will be giving away my Greek Hangman game at SBL, Mac and
Windows. That should be fun. Should be on my ftp site in a month for you


From: Orthopodeo@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 21:36:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Critical Apparatus 

<My question is - - Is there something out there that is more complete than
what is given to us in the UBS4? I would be most eager to have it in my

- --

John Calvin Hall >

Ah John!  I had passed out our correspondence on the textual issues to some
folks at a retreat just this past weekend, so you had been on my mind.  Good
to see you again.

As someone else has probably already mentioned to you, the more complete
(though not as exhaustive) apparatus is to be found in the Nestle-Aland 27th
edition.  You might appreciate the fact that the new edition is a bit larger
than the previous one--I appreciate that, anyway, as small print is not as eas
y for me to read as it used to be.  I carry both texts.  In fact, a friend of
mine, God bless his soul, is putting together a case for me that will carry
the following in a nice, fairly compact form:  Geneva Study Bible, UBS 4, NA
27, mini-TR, UBS Greek Lexicon, mini-NASB, Tanakh, and KJV NT.  For some
strange reason people keep asking me textual questions wherever I go these
days, so.....  Have you had a chance to check out my book yet?  It's widely
available.  And, if Ruckman doesn't back out, I'm supposed to be in Pensacola
in June of 1996 to "debate" him.  Should be an interesting encounter.  I sent
my response to his letter today.  He asked me to list the verses we are
supposed to discuss--those verses I feel are inaccurately translated, or are
in error, in the KJV.  My list (off the top of my head) included Luke 2:22,
Hebrews 10:23, Revelation 16:5, Acts 5:30, 19:23, and 1 John 5:7 (there was
one other).  We'll see what transpires.

James White


End of b-greek-digest V1 #706


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