b-greek-digest V1 #718

b-greek-digest             Wednesday, 24 May 1995       Volume 01 : Number 718

In this issue:

        Re: Colwell rule 
        Re: Manuscript photographs 
        Re: Word order: classical vs. nt
        Lukan shift
        NT MS Web Site
        Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
        Announcing NT Manuscript Mailing List
        Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
        New Metzger Festschrift 
        1 Jn 5:7 
        Re: Let's make a critical apparatus
        Re: Unsubscribe 
        IGNTP John Papyri Volume 
        Gal 3.16--seed or seeds?


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 02:52:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Colwell rule 

cc: jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu

Greg Jordon [jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu] 
on 5/21/95 noted...

>Grammatically, "a god" is indefinite, not definite.  
>Also, how does one distinguish between the substantive 
>use of an anarthrous noun & the "qualitative" use of one?
> Some non-controversial examples would be helpful - 
>I used to have a list of them but I can't find it.  As I
>remember, many "qualitative" nouns could just as 
>easily be read as figurative uses of nouns in their 
>substantive sense.

Mr. Moffatt translated John 1:1 here with the qualitative
sense:  "and the Word was divine."

Tim Staker


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 02:50:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Manuscript photographs 

CC: hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca

   If you are looking for a photograph/facsimile/photocopy 
of a certain passage from a certain papyri or mss, you 
can often write to the library where the manuscript is 
located to obtain it.

   In the NA27, the first codex gives a numerical listing 
of papyri, unicials, etc and the Bibliotheca (library) where 
the mss is located.  I have had good luck with most of 
the libraries in the US.  Some have even sent real 
photographs at no charge (though most charge at 
least $30 for photographs).

For you manuscript hunters, here are a few NT papyri in
America and their addresses:

P9, P10, 071
Houghton Library/Semetic Library
Harvard University
6 Divinity Ave
Cambridge, MA 02138

P12, P59, P60, P61, 076
The Pierpont Morgan Library
29 E 36th St
New York, NY 10016

P20, P54
Princeton University Library
One Washington Rd
Princeton, NJ 08544

World Heritge Museum
University of IL at Urbana-Champaign
Urbana IL 61801

Franklin Trask Library
Andover Newton Theological School
169 Herrick Rd
Newton Centre, MA 02159

The Bridwell Library
Southern Methodist University
Perkins School of Theology
Dallas, TX 75275

Bade Institute of Biblical Archaeology
Pacific School of Religion
1798 Scenic Ave
Berkeley, CA 94709

P49, P50
The Beinecke Rare Book & Mss Library
Box 1603A Yale Station
New Haven, CT 06520

The Oriental Institute Museum
1155 E 58th St
Chicago, IL 60637

United Theological Seminary
1810 Ohio Ave
Dayton, OH 45406

  I also was able to obtain photographs of P21, P26, P28 
and P39 from the--
  American Center of the International 
    Photographic Archive of Papyri
  4072 Foreign Languages Building
  University of IL at Urbana-Champaign
  Urbana, IL 61801

  Enjoy.  BTW, if you are fortunate to live near one of 
these locations, you can usually call the library ahead 
of time to arrange a viewing of the mss.  I have found the
Univeristy of Michigan library at Ann Arbor, MI 
to be very accessible in regards to
the Chester Beatty papyri.


Tim Staker


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 05:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Word order: classical vs. nt

On Mon, 22 May 1995, fuzzy wrote:
> >In classical Greek predicates are not more often in the middle of the
> >sentence.  Indeed, in periodic setences they are often delayed to the very
> >end, since that is the position of emphasis
> Why would it matter if predicates tend to come in the middle of the 
> sentence?   I thought the beginning was the position of emphasis. ( ... 
> relative a beginner here )

I tell my students (rather glibly, without ever having TESTED the truth 
of the statement) that the "normal" word-order in classical Greek is

	subject + modifiers / object(s) + modifiers / verb + modifiers

and that by "normal" I mean they're likely to see this in about 60% of 
the sentences they meet, the pattern being variable for rhetorical 
purposes, which purposes are not really likely to be absent, and that the 
positions of rhetorical emphasis are (1) the beginning, and (2) the end 
of the clause. But when I say this, I'm not trying to get them to look 
for the order SUBJECT/OBJECT/VERB but rather to underscore the generally 
exploited rhetorical possibilities in Greek clauses/sentences.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/


From: Marilyn Parry <marilyn@noc4.u-net.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 10:53:51 -0000 
Subject: bloopers

At last I have found my level in the seminar.

Best of the recent crop:

Well-known French theologian, Jeans Dandelion (Jean Danielou)

For cat-lovers: Archipuss, as mentioned in the letter to Philemon

Roman Emperor Dominion (Domitian) 

and one of the Fathers: Turtleon (Tertullian)

More seriously, is anyone out there particularly interested in the Book of 
Revelation, with special attention to its worship materials?

Marilyn Parry


The Rectory, 
55 Church St.
BL4   8AQ
United Kingdom


From: Marilyn Parry <marilyn@noc4.u-net.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 10:53:46 -0000 
Subject: Lukan shift

Luke 6:36 oiktirmones . . . oiktirmwn

For the Q hypothesis, there would be no problem in regarding this term as Q, 
and Mt 5:48 teleioi . . . teleios as MtR, cf Mt 19:21.

If not accepting Q, then Goulder's suggestions seem reasonable (Luke, A New 
Paradigm, 1989 pg 365), that Luke does not like the elitist implications of 
Mt's teleios, is influenced by choosing a substitute by the Beatitute Mt 
5:7, conscious of a pairing in LXX of elehmwn and oiktirmwn, "warm-hearted 
Luke" chooses oiktirmos probably under the influence also of Psalm 102:13.  

Hope this is of some use.

For David T.N. Parry at same address as Marilyn M. Parry

The Rectory,
55, Church St.
BL4   8AQ
United Kingdom


From: Clay100000@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 08:07:14 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe 

Unsubscribe B-Greek


From: fuzzy <fuzzy@prairie.lakes.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 07:33:33 -0500
Subject: Refund?

>I saw your mail on CD-ROM software regarding Greek NT. Your 
>info is interesting.  But what I found most interesting was your statement 
>that it 
>will save me 400% !! Will I actually get a refund that is four times as 
>high as 
>theprice I am paying??!!
I was making a comparison.  If you buy Logos or Hermeneutica, you pay around 
$350 ( US ).  If you buy all the reference works they contain as single 
hardcover references, you pay around $1500.  For example, all of Luther's 
works will soon be on Logos so why buy the whole 54 volume set when you can 
get it on CD-ROM with a nice search engine?


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 07:06:54 -0700
Subject: NT MS Web Site

James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 May 1995, David Moore wrote:
>>    What would be nice - since we're talking about this - is to have
>>the individual key MSS available in transcription through a WWW or
>>gopher site.  Often, it's not a case that one wants to know how every
>>MS reads on a given passage, but, rather, how a certain MS renders a
>>phrase.  Larry Hurtado's reference for requesting microfilms and 
>>on individual MSS is helpful in this sense; online, electric
>>transcriptions, however, would be more economical, if not quite so

>That is indeed Tim Finney's and my plan. The moment we get something
>(whether it be transcriptions or digitized manuscripts), it'll be
>available on my WWW pages. Stay tuned...

	Sounds great!  Who's going to coordinate so that transcriptions 
of given MSS aren't duplicated by more than one person unknowingly 
working on the same MS?

    David L. Moore                    Director of Education
    Miami, FL, USA                Southeastern Spanish District
Dvdmoore@ix.netcom.com               of the Assemblies of God


From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <hurtado@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:26:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Let's make a critical apparatus

Does Mr. Finney (and others on the list) know of the International Greek 
NT Project, which for several decades has been working toward the rather 
more complete crit. apparatus he aspires to contribute to?  Their work on 
Luke has appeared (Oxford Univ. Press), and they are now working on 
John.  I seriously recommend that all interested contact Prof. Carroll D. 
Osburn, Abilene Christian University, Abilene, Texas, who is urgently 
looking for reliable, committed people to help in the enormous task of 
collation of mss. for their work.

Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba 


From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 23:55:15 +0800 (WST)
Subject: Announcing NT Manuscript Mailing List

It's probably been 6 months since Tim Finney and I first talked about 
putting digitized manuscripts and transcriptions on the World Wide Web. 
At the time, I suggested we start a mailing list so that interested 
people could discuss the issues and get involved in the work. Tim was 
worried that it wouldn't get enough interest at such an early stage so I 
didn't do anything about it. Now seems like as good a time as any to 
change all that, so...

I am please to announce a new mailing list, nt-mss, dedicated to the 
discussion and implementation of a plan to make available on the World 
Wide Web (and possibily CD-ROM) digitized manuscripts and transcriptions 
of the Greek New Testament.

If you are interested in subscribing, send a request to:


	[make sure you say that it's nt-mss you're interested in]

If you want to write to the list, send your e-mail to:


Even if you're not interested in the mailing list, please let me know if 
you *are* interested in providing transcriptions, etc for the project.

We need all the input we can get!

James K. Tauber <jtauber@tartarus.uwa.edu.au>
4th year Honours Student, Centre for Linguistics
Computing Assistant, University Computing Services
University of Western Australia, Perth, AUSTRALIA


From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 09:30:29 PDT
Subject: Re: Let's make a critical apparatus

> the International Greek NT Project

Some may also be interested to know that the IGNTP has DOS interactive
software for entering one's collation into a foxbase database.
Convenient, if you have a laptop sitting next to your microfilm reader.
The project will work on John well into the next century (millenium).
If they're thinking ahead, they'll publish partial results electronically
well before the project is finished.

After my current pet project gets wrapped up, I'm thinking of transcribing
some of the Freer Gospels.  My probable approach would be to start with
NA26, edit in variants from the appendix to get a M.R. approximation to
Westcott-Hort, then edit in the variants from Sander's collation of
W against W-H.  This I would print out and red pencil by double checking
every jot and tittle against the microfilm.  From this I expect good accuracy
and, as by-products, a check on Sanders and an approximation to W-H on disk.
All would be FTPable, seeing that the copyright on W-H is long expired.
Don't expect speed.

Vincent Broman,  code 572 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641


From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 14:00 CDT
Subject: New Metzger Festschrift 

Listmembers interested in textual criticism of the NT should
not overlook the following volume in honor of Bruce Metzger:
Bart D. Ehrman & Michael W. Holmes, eds., *The Text of the
NT in Contemporary Research* (Eerdmans, 1995).  It gives
an outstanding overview of contemporary work on the origins
and transmission of the Greek NT.  Required reading for all
NT scholars!

Another useful book for listmembers interested in Christian
origins:  Craig A. Evans, *Jesus and His Contemporaries*
(Brill, 1995).  This historically sober work offers serious
challenges to the views of such scholars as Crossan, Koester,
and Mack, while placing Jesus squarely in his Jewish
Palestinian environment.  This is careful historical
reconstruction at its best.  --Paul Moser, Loyola University
of Chicago.


From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 13:03:38 PDT
Subject: 1 Jn 5:7 

   I tried sending this privately. It didn't work for me, so if someone
else has this person's correct address, maybe you could forward it to him.

    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 421 Host westpoint-emh2.usma.army.mil not found for mailer ddn.
> 550 <x74806h4@westpoint-emh2.usma.army.mil>... Host unknown
> Date: Tue, 23 May 95 09:52:10 PDT
> From: kenneth@sybase.com (Kenneth Litwak)
> Message-Id: <9505231652.AA01124@arctic.sybgate.sybase.com>
> To: x74806h4@westpoint-emh2.usma.army.mil
> Subject: 1 Jn 5:7
> Paul,
>    If you haven't been inundated with responses already, I'll try to 
> explain this (I'm leaving out some because this is really part of a 
> larger topic, so if you have questions, send them to me).  It is
> felt by most NT scholars that the presence or abscence of a verse in
> the earliest manuscrips (MSS) we have says a lot about their authenticity.
> The logic, in part, is similar to the game where a bunch of people stand
> in a circle, the first person whispers a story to the person next to 
> him/her and each person successively passes it on by whispering.  At the
> end of the line,the last person says what he/she heard, and often it
> is pretty far away from the original story..  In this particular case,
> 1 Jn 5:7 as it appears in the KJV does not appear in ANY Greek MSS
> prior to the 12th cent. AD.  It does appear in the Latin Vulgate, dating
> from around the 5th cent. I think (I know it's in the Vulgate -- I'm
> not sure about the date of its appearance).  Most scholars (and myself,
> though not a scholar as such) would argue that making such a late
> appearance in a Greek MS, and there are only three MSS which have this
> reading, clearly indicates it is not original, but was added by a 
> scribe somewhere along the line,probably at first as a note in the
> margin in the Latin Vulgate.  It exists in the KJV because it was in
> the Greek text publsiehd by Erasmus.  It was in Erasmus's text because 
> he first prepared a Greek text without out, not having any MS evidence
> for it.  He was told by the official Church to put it in.  He replied he
> would only do so if there was a Greek MS which contained it.  Basically,
> such a MS was "created" for him and thus he put it in.  I am a 
> conservative, Evangelical Christian, and I believe fully in the
> doctrine of the Trinity, but I have no doubts whatsoever that this 
> verse was not originally part of 1 John, though it may be making a
> true statement.  You may wish to see further Bruce Metzger's Textual
> Commentary on the UBS Greek NT or his book _The Text of the NT_
> for more details.  
> In Christ,
> Ken Litwak


From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 13:10:57 PDT
Subject: Re: Let's make a critical apparatus

BTW, about the IGNTP again...
Bart Ehrman told me about two years ago that the John papyri apparatus
would be published "probably in a year and a half or so"
in the Brill Series "New Testament Tools and Studies".
Does anyone know how close this is to the light of day?

Vincent Broman,  code 572 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641


From: Benita Suber-Bey <bmsuber@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 15:23:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe 

Unsubscribe B-Greek    Bmsuber@ilstu.edu


From: "Bart D. Ehrman" <BARTUNC@uncmvs.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 17:10 EDT
Subject: IGNTP John Papyri Volume 

    Vincent Broman asks about the IGNTP John papyri volume.
The British committee has more or less finished work on the
volume and it is scheduled to appear in the Brill series
_New Testament Tools and Studies_ edited by Bruce Metzger and
myself.  We have not yet seen final copy yet, but I expect
that something will be showing up soon, possibly by the end
of the summer.  At best, I suppose, it will be out then by
the beginning of 1996.

   The volume will include transcriptions of every papyrus
ms. of the Fourth Gospel, done in interlinear fashion similar
to Julicher's Vetus Latina; among other things, it will also
include complete photographs of all of the mss except the longer
ones (P66, P75, and possibly one or two others; these are available
already elsewhere) -- in their entirety.  I should prove to be an
invaluable resource.
   This, of course, is the first stage in the publication of the
IGNTP John, being worked on at present by both a British and an
American committee.

- -- Bart D. Ehrman, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill


From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 16:43:30 
Subject: Gal 3.16--seed or seeds?

Hello, all. 

I'm not certain this question belongs in B-Greek, but here goes.

In Gal 3.16, Paul makes a great deal of the fact that the OT (Gen 13.15, 17.8,
24.7) specifies that Abraham's promises are to one *seed* (singular), not many
*seeds* (plural).  I've read *somewhere* that there are questions regarding
this point, that grammatically Paul is making some kind of error or fudging the
facts, etc.  But I can't remember where I've read this, and with the end of the
semester, I have no access to a research library to check it out.

Therefore I throw the question to y'all, friends.  Can someone explain what
Paul is doing and why it raises questions?  And please, if your explanation
hinges on fine points of Hebrew grammar, be clear and understandable.  My
Hebrew is about as good as my German--rudimentary at best.

Thanks in advance.

Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University  

        (Not born a Texan, but I got here as quick as I could!)


End of b-greek-digest V1 #718


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