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b-greek-digest V1 #766




b-greek-digest            Wednesday, 28 June 1995      Volume 01 : Number 766

In this issue:

        BG: End of Mark Possibilities 
        Dating the DSS
        Reference on "harpagmos" 
        Apocalyptic literature 
        Re: Apocalyptic literature
        Re: Apocalyptic literature 
        Re: Apocalyptic literature
        Interp. Of Apocalyptic Lit.
        Re: Apocalyptic literature
        Re: Apocalyptic literature 
        Re: Apocalyptic literature

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:53:40 CST
Subject: BG: End of Mark Possibilities 

Does anyone see any viable possibilities that explain the evidence for the
ending of Mark other than the following?

1) Mark is the author of the long ending.  A copy in the late first century or
early second century lost the last sheet containing the last twelve verses.  In
the tradition that did not contain these verses, a short ending was devised.

2) Mark wrote another ending to the gospel which was lost from the autograph
(or at least ancestor of all extant copies).  The long ending was devised in
the late first century or early second century to replace the lost ending.  A
shorter ending was later devised for the same reason in the tradition that did
not include the longer ending.

3) Mark intended to provide an ending to his gospel covering the resurrection
appearances but was hindered from doing so due to death, disease, persecution,
etc.  The long and short endings of Mark arose as noted in #2 above.

4) Mark intended to end his gospel with EFOBOUNTO GAR, but this was not
satisfactory to a number of copists and consequently the long and short endings
of Mark were added as noted in #2 above.

********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769
********************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Greg Doudna <gdoudna@ednet1.osl.or.gov>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 08:40:08 -0700
Subject: Dating the DSS

> I wonder if Greg might elaborate a bit on what the results
> of the retesting were. The *BAR* piece suggested that the
> matter was not revolutionary, at least from the standpoint
> of dating.--Paul Moser, Loyola University of Chicago.

Actually with only one exception (the famous Cave 1 Isaiah[A]
manuscript) none of the texts radiocarbon-dated in the recent
testing at Tucson were retests.  Instead, they contributed
data on texts that had not previously been tested.  Among the
new texts tested were: early fragments of the Damascus
Document; the Habakkuk Pesher; the Psalm 37 Pesher;
1QS (Community Rule); and a number of less-familiar items.
The full data will appear imminently (probably within a month
or two) in both _Atiqot_ and _Radiocarbon_ journals.

The *BAR* description is essentially accurate in that the data
deals with ranges of possible dates which do not clearly
overturn existing conceptions.  The Tucson results seem to be
a bit more varied and less consistent than the results from
Zurich in 1990.  For example, on the Damascus Document, the
text I originally requested to be tested and proposed to
underwrite, not just one but two fragments from the earliest
manuscripts (from paleography) were tested, 4Q266 and 4Q267.
The published paleographic estimate for 4Q266 was 100-50 BCE,
but the radiocarbon result was 5-80 CE [68% probability].
However the other fragment, 4Q267, with a published
paleographic estimate of 50-0 BCE, produced a radiocarbon
dating of 172-98 BCE.  It may be relevant that the lab
reported a glue contamination problem with several items,
including 4Q266 (but not 4Q267).  

The offer I obtained from Tucson to conduct these tests was
actually intended to be for a third set of tests in addition
to the second set planned at Zurich.  Unfortunately the
second round of Zurich tests fell through for unknown reasons.
both sets of data--Zurich 1990 and Tucson 1994--are valuable
in providing external checks on the paleographic sequence.
The more data of this kind that can be obtained, the better.
I will be presenting a paper in the Qumran section of SBL
this November in Philadelphia analyzing the radiocarbon
results and DSS dating issues.  Truly, a "radioactive" 
topic :-).

Greg Doudna
West Linn, Oregon

- --




------------------------------

From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 10:51 CDT
Subject: Reference on "harpagmos" 

For helpful discussion of the use of "harpagmos" in
the Christ hymn, see N.T. Wright, "harpagmos and the meaning
of Philippians 2:5-11," *Journal of Theological Studies* 37
(Oct. 1986), 321-52.--Paul Moser, Loyola University of Chicago.

------------------------------

From: TNewell889@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:08:57 -0400
Subject: Apocalyptic literature 

This may or may not be the place for this post because "Greek" is not the
issue.  But, it is a concern of some of the New Testament.

I have been teaching a class to laypeople in my own church on Revelation.
 They had some problems when I explained to them the proper understanding of
apocalytic literature (the genre in Revelation fits).  The reason I am
sending this post to the list is to gain a better understanding of
apocalyptic literature, the book of Revelation, and its interpretation.

Basically, I understand apoc. lit. as a type of literature written to
encourage those who were being persecuted (NT), in exile (OT), etc. to stand
strong and remain faithful.  It's purpose has never been to predict future
events as many have used Revelation to do.  This drastically changed the way
persons saw Revelation and thought it to be interpreted.  A question I have
is: In what sense is the book of Revelation prophetic?

Another interesting side topic to the study of this book is the history of
its interpretation.  Christians throughout the centuries have struggled with
the book of Revelation, perhaps because they did not understand it as apoc.
lit.

Therefore, for those who are interested in this thread, I would appreciate
comments, remarks, or debate concerning apocalyptic literature in the New
Testament and its related topics (i.e., interpretation problems caused by
John Nelson Darby, dispensationalism, etc.)

Terry-Michael Newell, Jr.
M.Div. Candidate
Duke University Divinity School

------------------------------

From: Mark O'Brien <Mark_O'Brien@dts.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 12:55:35 CDT
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature

Original message sent on Tue, Jun 27  12:08 PM by TNewell889@aol.com :

>Therefore, for those who are interested in this thread, I would appreciate
>comments, remarks, or debate concerning apocalyptic literature in the New
>Testament and its related topics (i.e., interpretation problems caused by
>John Nelson Darby, dispensationalism, etc.)

I am kinda curious as to what problems you see in dispensational interpretations
of Revelation.  (I have no axe to grind...  I'm just interested in your views.)

Mark <mark_o'brien@dts.edu>

------------------------------

From: TNewell889@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 18:15:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature 

In a message dated 95-06-27 14:16:36 EDT, Mark O'Brien wrote:

>I am kinda curious as to what problems you see in dispensational
>interpretations
>of Revelation.  (I have no axe to grind...  I'm just interested in your
>views.)
>
>

First, I must admit I know just a bit about the dispensationalist system of
interpretation.  What I do know follows:

Throughout the history of the Christian Church, many have struggled with the
proper interpretation of Revelation.  Specifically, Christian did not know
what to do with the "Thousand Year Reign of Jesus with the Saints" described
in Rev. 20.4-7.  Much misinterpretation was developed because of poor and
unskilled exegesis.  Arounf the 2nd century, Christian were awaiting the
return of Jesus that they expect to be soon.  They beleived the "millennium"
to be an earthly kingdom Christ was coming to establish at his return.  Thus,
the birth of "premillennialiam."  (I believe this is a major arguement for
dispensationalists.)  Time passed and still not parousia.  Then,
post-millennialism arose.  The year A.D. 1000 came and went with much
excitement, but no seconf coming of Christ.  Therefore, Christians remained
in the dark about the interpreation of Revelation.

With the rise of the Protestant Reformation, the reformers saw the Catholic
Church as the beast in chapters 13 & 17.  The wounded head (13) and the
harlot (17) was the Pope.  Thus, the RCC had to develop a proper
understanding of these texts.  They began emphasizing, and rightly so, the
"original" intent of these texts.  In other words, what did these texts mean
to their original recipients.  Around the late 1700s and early 1800s came the
rise of the critical investigation of scripture and historical research.
 Scholars now could understand how apocalyptic though and literature
operated.  However, this movement stayed mainly in the universities and did
not influence the Church.

Around the same time period (early 19th century), the situation in Great
Britian and Ireland was not good.  Many were dissatified with the Church.
 So, they broke and formed small "cell" groups for Bible study, prayer, and
fellowship.  Out of this movement came the group known as the Plymouth
Brethren.  For them, the church was rotten and they were the only true
believers.  They were joined by and Irish Anglican priest named John Nelson
Darby who was very articulate and loved the high profile lifestyle.  Darby,
through this "cell" group Bible study began to make certain conclusions about
history and Biblical interpretation.  He believed the Bible contained the
entire human history from beginning to end.  Also, pointed out that God dealt
with the world through Israel, but they had rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
 So, God had to make other arrangements.  God created the Church to serve as
an "interim institution" that in the end must be removed from the earth.
 Prooftexting his arguement, he misinterpreted 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18 where
Paul used symbolic language to describe to them that ultimately they would be
be restored to their loved dead ones.  Darby concluded this was how God would
remove the church from the world, otherwise known as the rapture, that is,
the "snatching up" of the faithful church from this world.  He continued to
find texts in scripture that support his theories.  Apocalyptic literature
began a focused target with no consideration of its original meaning.  He saw
it as a prediction of the "end of the world."  From 1829 to the present,
Darby and other dispensationalists began to predict the end of the world
based on his conclusions.  They were always wrong, but still remained
zealous.

More could be said concerning Darby's travels and spred of this theory, James
H. Brookes and his summer Bible conferences, Cyrus I. Scofield and his study
Bible, Lewis Sperry Chafes and Dallas Theological Seminary, etc.  This gives
a starting point for discussion.

My problem with this interpretation is that it does not take into
consideration the original intent of apocalyptic literature or the book of
Revelation.  Originally, both were used to encourage persons who were in
exile or being persecuted.


Terry-Michael Newell, Jr.
M.Div. Candidate
Duke University Divinity School

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 16:14:43 PDT
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature

>  Prooftexting his arguement, he misinterpreted 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18 where
> Paul used symbolic language to describe to them that ultimately they would be
> be restored to their loved dead ones.  Darby concluded this was how God would
> remove the church from the world, otherwise known as the rapture, that is,
> the "snatching up" of the faithful church from this world.  He continued to
> find texts in scripture that support his theories.  Apocalyptic literature
> began a focused target with no consideration of its original meaning.  He saw
> it as a prediction of the "end of the world."  From 1829 to the present,
> Darby and other dispensationalists began to predict the end of the world
> based on his conclusions.  They were always wrong, but still remained
> zealous.
> My problem with this interpretation is that it does not take into
> consideration the original intent of apocalyptic literature or the book of
> Revelation.  Originally, both were used to encourage persons who were in
> exile or being persecuted.

I'm not about to get involved in a discussion of Dispensationalism.  I do 
have two questions for you, however, regarding your statements.  First,
upon what do you base the view that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is symbolic, and
why do you put this particular handful of verses in a non-apocalyptic lit.
book in the category of apocalyptic literature?  Second, since you 
focused your note on Rev. 20, I would like to know what the original 
intent of Revelation has to do with the specific meaning of this passage.
Is Revelation just for comfort?  If so, and I think that is 
underinterpreting it, why doesn't the presentation of a future, earthly
kingdom meet with that purpose?  This is not a question about
Dispensationalims, but straightforward exegesis.


Ken

------------------------------

From: "DR. KEN PULLIAM" <thedoc@aztec.asu.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:03:04 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Interp. Of Apocalyptic Lit.

This is in response to TNewell's comments concerning the book of Revelation
being in the genre of apocalyptic literature. I think this is a generally
agreed upon fact in the scholarly community. However, one doesn't have to
deny the prophetic character of apocalyptic literature. I would recommend
George Ladd's commentary on Revelation. (Ladd of course was the Prof. Of NT
for years at Fuller Seminary). Ladd, using his "now but not yet" hermeneutic,
shows how Revelation had meaning for the first century recipients as well as
as a future application. One certainly doesn't have to deny a future more
definitive fulfillment to Revelation in order to see its first century 
reference. I believe the same is true in much of biblical prophecy. For 
example, the Olivet Discourse in Mt. 24, I believe has reference both to
AD 70 as well as some future date.

If you are not familiar with this kind of hermeneutic, I would recommend

Ladd's NT Theology, as well as his book, Jesus and the Kingdom.

- --
Ken R. Pulliam, Ph.D.
Chandler, Arizona
thedoc@aztec.asu.edu

------------------------------

From: Shaughn Daniel <zxmli05@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 04:47:15 +0000
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature

Some recent perusals which may be helpful not only for the debate, but also
as  short description and might, in some far away abstraction, be
appropriate for teaching apocalyptic in a church setting. Please, let me
know if it helps or just makes you want to cry. ;)

Sincerely,

Shaughn Daniel
Tuebingen, Germany



====================
Source: Der Kleine Pauly, vol. 1, s.v. "Apokalypsen" and "Apocryphen".
====================
APOKALYPSEN. Offenbarungsschriften, in denen goettliche Geheimnisse und
verborgene Zukunft, insbesondere die >>letzten Dinge<<, das Weltende,
enthuellt werden in Vision, Traum, ekstatischer Inspiration, Verkuendigung
von Engeln u.ae.; Mittel zum Ausdruck des Uebernatuerlichen ist die
Symbolsprache. A. enstanden sich im Christentum vor allem bei Sekten und
Gnostikern. In den biblischen Kanon aufgenommene A. sind im AT das Buch
Daniel, im NT die A. des Johannes. A. sind das bevorzugte Thema der
- ->apokryphen Lit.

translation:

Apocalypses. Writings of revelations, in which divine secrets and hidden
future, especially the "last things", the end of the world, are uncovered
through visions, dreams, ecstatic inspiration, messages from angels, etc.;
the medium of expressing the supernatural is the language of symbols. Apoc.
originated in Christianity above all with sects and gnostics. In the
biblical canon of apoc. writings included, are the books of Daniel in the
OT and the Revelation of John in the NT. Apoc. is the most preferred theme
of apocryphal literature. Transl. by Shaughn Daniel, Tuebingen, 1995.

=====
APOKRYPHEN hiessen in hellenistischer Zeit geheime Buecher mit verborgenen,
nur fuer den Kreis der Eingeweihten bestimmten Lehren in der Art des Corpus
- -> Hermeticum. Die A.-Lit. bluehte besonders in jued. und chr. Gemeinden.
Die A. der Sekten erhoben Anspruch auf eine dogmatische Autoritaet, welche
ihnen die Kirche versagte, so dass A. im engern Sinne zur Bezeichnung fuer
aus dem biblischen Kanon ausgeschlossene Schriften wurde: -> Apokalypsen,
Testamente der 12 Patriarchen (Morallehre), Henoch, 4. B. Esdra, ->Orakel
(Sibyll.), der Hirte des -> Hermas, Apostelgeschichten und -briefe,
Evangelien des Jacobus, Thomas (manichaeisch), Petrus, Nikodemus u.a.
Article by Prof. Dr. Otto Hiltbrunner, Muenster.

1 Emil Kautzsch, A. und Pseudoepigraphen des AT, 1900.
2 Edgar Hennecke and Wilhelm Schneemelcher, New Testament Apocrypha
3 Bibliogr.: B. Altaner, Patrologie. Leben, Schriften und Lehre der
Kirchenvaeter, 5., voellig neu bearb. Aufl. (1958) 51-73.

translation:

Apocrypha was the name in Hellenistic times for secret books with hidden,
only for the circle of dedicated, certain teachings in the fashion of the
Corpus Hermetica. Apocryphal literature bloomed especially in jewish and
christian communities. The apocryphal writings of sects made objection to a
dogmatic authority, which for them broke down the church, so that apocrypha
was in a closer sense a sign for the writings which were shut out of the
biblical canon: -> Apocalyptic, Testaments of Hermas, Acts and Letters of
various apostles, Gospels of James, Thomas (Manichaean), Peter, Nicodemus,
and others. Transl. by Shaughn Daniel, Tuebingen, 1995.


====================
Source: Conzelmann/Lindemann, "VII. The Apocalypse of John" in Interpreting
the NT (Hendrickson, 1988) 277-282.
====================
My notes:

Preliminary: Apocalypse of John is the unfolding of the future.

1a. Commentaries sorted by date
    (Caird and Collins = English, all others = German):

        E. Lohmeyer  1953 (2nd ed)
        G.B. Caird   1966
        W. Bousset   1966 (7th ed)
        E. Lohse     1971 (3rd ed)
        A.Y. Collins 1976
        H. Kraft     1974
        A.Y. Collins 1984
        J. Roloff    1984

1b. Further bib:

        Charlesworth I.29-50 and 73-74
           (1 Enoch's similitudes and the apoc. of ten weeks)
        Charlesworth I. 548-555
           (4 Ezra in comparison with Rev)
        E. Lohse, "Apokalyptik und Christologie," in Die Einheit
           des NT (Ges. Aufs.), 1973, 125-144.


2. The structure of revelation presents some problems. The first part of
Rev is 1-3 and the second part begins with chapter 4, which is indeed more
difficult to analyze because of its complex symbols and framework. The
closing section of Rev (22.6-21) concludes in typical fashion of jewish
apocalypic.

3. Literary features: heavenly worship paralleled by earthly events,
unfolding of world events versus a position of a reworking of material by
the author from fragments.

4. History of religion symbols: sea is mythical sea of chaos and
Mediterranean (mare nostrum of Rome); Nero redivivus is in 13.3 and 17.8;
the numbering of emporers in Rev 13 is unclear; the number 666 cannot be
deciphered; fundamental differences btwn jewish apocalyptic and John's A. =
not pseudipigraphic in design, concern with christian communities, actual
situation of Asia Minor in Rev 2 and 3. Quote: "...it seems that John has
to be understood as standing within the tradition of the prophets (1:9-11,
19f. function like a commissioning account; cf. also 1:3; 22:9)" (p. 281).

5. Authorship: ancient tradition of the church interpreted "John" (Rev
1:1-4) as the son of Zebedee, the author of the Gospel and the Letters.
Modern arguments against this: language and theological ideas, esp.
eschatology are "completely divergent"; no knowledge of the "historical"
Jesus is discerned in Rev.

6. Date: more certain based on following:
13.8,15 = Christian rejection of emporer cult; 6.9-11 = organized
persecution of the church; Iraenus, Adv Haer V 30.3 confirms era of
Domitian (A.D. 81-96).

7. Provenance: very likely in Asia Minor towards end of first century.

8. Theological challenges (Conzelmann & Lindemann call them "problems"):
The interpretation of the prophecies concerning the history and future of
the church, as well as the interpretation of the end of the world, has been
a key issue since the distribution of the work of Revelation. An
interpretation of Revelation in terms of contemporary society is not
"exegesis", but rather "application"; for when "Hitler" is identified as
the "beast", this is the utmost of incorrect exegesis. Some of the stories
in Revelation symbolically represent historical figures and situations,
therefore, to "apply" the symbols to today is no more than allegorical
interpretation.
The author of Revelation does not seem very concerned either to interpret
the symbols comprehensively for his audience. This may reflect that the
author of Revelation wants to appropriate the sphere of the
"supra-historical" or the "trascendent" expressed in the images. The view
that Revelation is simply a "touched-up" Jewish document by Christians is
too critical (Bultmann and others). The past appears to have no more
interest for the author after 1.5, only where the death and exaltation are
mentioned. The history of Israel is claimed to be meaningless by Conzelmann
& Lindemann). There are no literal quotations from the OT, only endless
allusions. The history of the church is not taken into view, i.e., "from
Jesus to the present time of the author" (282).

====================



------------------------------

From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:12:36 CST
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature 

On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Terry-Michael Newell, Jr. wrote:

>Basically, I understand apoc. lit. as a type of literature written to
>encourage those who were being persecuted (NT), in exile (OT), etc. to stand
>strong and remain faithful.  It's purpose has never been to predict future
>events as many have used Revelation to do.

and

>Therefore, for those who are interested in this thread, I would appreciate
>comments, remarks, or debate concerning apocalyptic literature in the New
>Testament and its related topics (i.e., interpretation problems caused by
>John Nelson Darby, dispensationalism, etc.)

I am not at all sure that apocalyptic does not mean to predict future events,
although I would agree that it is often grossly misused.

I have noted three characteristics of Biblical apocalyptic:

1) It contains a prophecy of a near event (time-wise) that will be fulfilled
in the original reader's lifetime, in order to validate the prophecy.

2) It contains a prophecy of a far event (time-wise) that must be accepted on
faith based upon the writer's/speaker's ability to correctly prophesy the near
future.

3) It contains an exhortation to endurance based upon the far event
prophesied.

For example, Matthew 24 contains 1) a prophecy of the destruction of the 
temple then extant in Jerusalem; 2) a prophecy of Christ's second coming; and
3) an exhortation to endure.

Likewise, the book of Daniel (can I make this statement without opening the
can of worms about the dating and historicity of that book?) contains these
three elements in chiastic form:
A. Prophecy of kingdom cut out without hands (#2)
  B. Three men in the fiery furnace (#3)
    C. Prophecy of the king's madness (#1)
    C'. Prophecy of the fall of Babylon to Medo-Persia (#1)
  B'. Daniel in the lion's den (#3)
A'. Prophecy of the four beasts (#2)

I would suspect that the book of Revelation contains these same three elements
and discusses both coming events in the Roman empire, Christ's second coming,
and the need to endure in the face of persecution.

********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769
********************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 23:34:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apocalyptic literature

I tend to agree with the criticism that has been offered: how is the 
hope offered by apocalypse incompatible with an actual belief in its 
prophetic literalism?  It may bother some to think that early Christians 
actually expected angels to blow horns and hold back winds at the end of 
history (not to mention the sky cracking open), but it seems this would 
have been at least as comforting as a merely symbolic reminder of  
spiritual deliverance, especially in the face of a very physical 
persecution.

I think it's important not to oversimplify the possibilities for 
symbolism and literal prophecy in apocalypses.  I think both are 
present.  I think the rejection of the literal millenium had more to do 
with the rise of asceticism, the legalization of Christianity, and the 
disowning of Judaizers, Montanists, Cerinthianists, etc.  It did not take 
until the end of the millenium for people like Augustine in the fourth 
century to reinterpret Rev. 20 symbolically.  The question for 
interpretation is what did its earlier author intend?

Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu

------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #766
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