b-greek-digest V1 #813

b-greek-digest             Monday, 7 August 1995       Volume 01 : Number 813

In this issue:

        Subscribe b-greek 
        Re: Phil 1:7
        Re: Phil 1:7 
        Fwd: John 1:1c 
        Re: Rom. 8:28


From: dtw86847@acuvax.acu.edu
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 15:24:14 CST
Subject: Subscribe b-greek 

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From: Penner <kpenner@mail.unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:03:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Phil 1:7

> >At 11:18 AM 8/5/95, WINBROW@aol.com wrote:


I should  clarify my original reason for supporting the NRSV
translation. When I suggested that the ME in EXEIN ME EN THi
KARDIAi hUMAS was the object, it was because ME directly follows
the verb, as XREIAN does in 1Th 1:8, not because it is the first
accusative. In this, I could very well be projecting English syntax
onto Greek. That's why I needed the input of those who have spent
more time with Greek than I have. I should realize I don't have the 
experience to trust my "gut feeling"  as Carl seems to be able to 
;) . I guess it'll only come with time.

On  5 Aug 95 at 15:49, Bruce Terry wrote:

> I have to agree, Carl.  This OVS word order is placing emphasis on the need
> (or lack thereof).  If one is wondering whether SVO or OVS is more usual in
> the GNT with infinitives, I would have to go with SVO.  My databases for James
> and 1 Corinthians show 1 example of SVO for James and 5 for 1 Corinthians and
> no examples of OVS for infinitives in either book.

If our Philippians 1:7 had the verb between two accusatives (either
SVO or OVS), it might be a simpler question as to which pronoun is
the subject. As it is, we have to choose between VSO or VOS, with
the complicating factor of a prepositional phrase between S and O.

> It is very unusual to have two accusative pronouns following the infinitive.

I wish I had the resources to find parallel examples. Can anyone
find out how unusual this type of construction is and provide
other examples that might be helpful?

> In looking for an analogous passage, these factors have to be
> kept in mind:

(My summary of Bruce's excellent points:)
1) Pronouns may affect word order differently than nouns.
2) Equative verbs and verbs of speech are special cases.
3) The pronoun (if only one) tends to be found next to the verb.
4) Questions, emphasis, negatives, and voice may all affect word order.
5) The verb initial order is preferred following a preposition.
6) Generally, the subject precedes the object.

> Therefore I would favor Phil. 1:7 ECEIN ME IN TH KARDIA hUMAS
> being translated "I have you in my heart."  The thing that
> bothers me about this is that a locational prepositional phrase
> is more likely to follow the object.  Could hUMAS be an
> afterthought "subject" tagged on?  It could, but on the whole I
> favor the VSO order in this case.

The prepositional phrase threw me, too. That's partly why I
thought of the subject as an afterthought. I'm still not convinced 
one way or the other; I'm open to analogous passages.

Ken Penner
Regent College, Vancouver



From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 21:36:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Phil 1:7 

Ken Penner summarized Bruce Terry's qualifications in deciding which
accusative is subject/object when two accusatives appear with the infinitive,
"(My summary of Bruce's excellent points:)
1) Pronouns may affect word order differently than nouns.
2) Equative verbs and verbs of speech are special cases.
3) The pronoun (if only one) tends to be found next to the verb.
4) Questions, emphasis, negatives, and voice may all affect word order.
5) The verb initial order is preferred following a preposition.
6) Generally, the subject precedes the object."

This is a good summary of what Bruce presented.  My first reaction would be
that it will be hard to find many examples in the Greek NT that would not be
qualified by one of these or some other.  I have found a few examples but I
have not checked them against this list.  Sometimes the subject comes first
because it also serves as the object of a verb like DEI or some other word of
necessity or desireability.  I have had gut feeling for a long time that most
of the time when both accusatives followed the infinitive the more "normal"
was VSO, but I have not amassed enough examples without some other possible
explanations for the order.  Here are a few examples in the raw.  I have left
them in the English form of the Greek font for Mac from Linquist Software.
 If you are using a Mac and SuperGreek, Graeca, or Alexandria, just select
each sentence and change the font to Greek.  Some of these egs. are in
purpose clauses, some in hOTI clauses.  All of these things may be modifying

Acts 19:10   tou'to de; ejgevneto ejpi; e[th duvo, w{ste pavnta" tou;"
katoikou'nta" th;n xAsivan ajkou'sai to;n lovgon tou' kurivou

Acts 24:4   i{na de; mh; ejpi; plei'ovn se ejgkovptw, parakalw' ajkou'saiv se
hJmw'n suntovmw" th'/ sh'/ ejpieikeiva/. 

John 1:48  Pro; tou' se Fivlippon fwnh'sai o[nta uJpo; th;n sukh'n ei\dovn

Matt. 25:27   e[dei se ou\n balei'n ta; ajrguvriav mou toi'" trapezivtai",

Acts 2:27   o{ti oujk ejgkataleivyei" th;n yuchvn mou eij" a{/dhn, oujde;
dwvsei" to;n o{siovn sou ijdei'n diafqoravn.

Acts 19:21   eijpw;n o{ti Meta; to; genevsqai me ejkei' dei' me kai; ORwvmhn

Acts 10:43   touvtw/ pavnte" oiJ profh'tai marturou'sin, a[fesin aJmartiw'n
labei'n dia; tou' ojnovmato" aujtou' pavnta to;n pisteuvonta eij" aujtovn.

Acts 26:18   ajnoi'xai ojfqalmou;" aujtw'n, tou' ejpistrevyai ajpo; skovtou"
eij" fw'" kai; th'" ejxousiva" tou' Satana' ejpi; to;n qeovn, tou' labei'n
aujtou;" a[fesin aJmartiw'n kai; klh'ron ejn toi'" hJgiasmevnoi" pivstei th'/
eij" ejmev. 

Matt. 16:21   xApo; tovte h[rxato oJ xIhsou'" deiknuvein toi'" maqhtai'"
aujtou' o{ti dei' aujto;n eij" OIerosovluma ajpelqei'n kai; polla; paqei'n
ajpo; tw'n presbutevrwn

Mark 8:31   Kai; h[rxato didavskein aujtou;" o{ti dei' to;n uiJo;n tou'
ajnqrwvpou polla; paqei'n kai; ajpodokimasqh'nai uJpo; tw'n presbutevrwn

Luke 9:22   eijpw;n o{ti Dei' to;n uiJo;n tou' ajnqrwvpou polla; paqei'n kai;
ajpodokimasqh'nai ajpo; tw'n presbutevrwn

Luke 17:25   prw'ton de; dei' aujto;n polla; paqei'n kai; ajpodokimasqh'nai
ajpo; th'" genea'" tauvth".

Luke 24:26   oujci; tau'ta e[dei paqei'n to;n Cristo;n kai; eijselqei'n eij"
th;n dovxan aujtou'x

Mark 1:17   kai; ei\pen aujtoi'" oJ xIhsou'", Deu'te ojpivsw mou, kai;
poihvsw uJma'" genevsqai aJliei'" ajnqrwvpwn.

I will have some more egs. when I have time to get into my files and pull out
egs. I looked up when I was working on the Syntax book 15 years ago.

Carlton Winbery
Prof. Rel.
LA College, Pineville, La


From: MR ALAN R CRAIG <CSRT29A@prodigy.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 22:28:36 EDT
Subject: Fwd: John 1:1c 

- -- [ From: Alan R. Craig * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --

Again, because I didn't receive any help on this request, I will post
it yet once again:

> Date: Friday, 21-Jul-95 10:32 AM
> From: Alan R. Craig            \ PRODIGY:     (CSRT29A)
> To:   Greek                    \ Internet:    (b-greek@virginia.edu)
> Subject: John 1:1c
> Because there appear to be a number of different ones here who either
> access to some remarkable libraries or to some comprehensive CD-ROM
> materials, I would be interested in having someone do a search for
me.  I
> am trying to locate other examples from the N.T. Greek, LXX, or even
> Classical Greek which parallel the exact word order and precise
> structure as that of John 1:1c; e.g., Acts 28:4; Mark 2:28; Esther 10:
> (LXX).
> Thanks in advance, A. Craig.

Thanks again, A. Craig.


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 23:04:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Rom. 8:28

	The traditional translation, "We know that all things work 
together for good to them that love God..." works quite well, if we take 
PANTA as a nominative plural.  See for instance Mat. 6:33 where TAUTA 
PANTA is  also referred to by a verb in the singular.  The addition 
of hO QEOS (p46, A, B, 81, sahidic) construes PANTA as accusative, and 
perhaps influences us to employ the variant reading even without the textual 
addition of hO QEOS.

David L. Moore                             Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida                               of the  Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us           Department of Education

On Fri, 4 Aug 1995 WINBROW@aol.com wrote:

> Nichael wrote in response to my statement that the footnote in the NRSV at
> Romans 8:28 is misleading, 
> "But as is made clear in the intro to the NRSV "Other ancient authorities" is
> merely a code phrase for the fact that some alternate reading also exists in
> a noteworthy portion of the textual history."
> The statement in the introduction to the NRSV reads,
> "Here and there in the footnotes the phrase, 'Other ancient authorities
> read,' identifies alternative readings preserved by Greek manuscripts and
> early versions. In both Testaments, alternative renderings of the text are
> indicated by the word "Or."
> My point is that at this place the translating making God the subject of the
> verb is possible even if the text which does not have O QEOS is not present.
>  The footnote in the NRSV leaves the English reader with the idea that there
> is only a textual variation, when in fact many who accept the same textual
> reading as the KJV translate it differently than the KJV and the NRSV.  A
> clear footnote would be Or "He makes all things . . ."  Other ancient
> authorities add the word God as the subject.  We are clearly dealing with
> both a variation in translation of text and a variation in text.
> I think this is the point that I made in my original post.  I never used the
> word "unconventional" in any of my post.  That was someone else.
> Carlton Winbery
> Prof. Rel.
> LA College, Pineville, LA


End of b-greek-digest V1 #813


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