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b-greek-digest V1 #837




b-greek-digest             Sunday, 27 August 1995       Volume 01 : Number 837

In this issue:

        B-Greek Archive missed a day or two
        word processing
        Re: B-Greek Archive missed a day or two
        BG: Synoptic Apocalypse 
        Re: BG: Synoptic Apocalypse 
        Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse)
        Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse) 
        Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse)
        GENETIC Choices/Christian Morals 
        Re: GENETIC Choices/Christian Morals
        [none]
        To: b-greek@virginia.edu
        RESEARCH 
        Pocket Greek NT?
        apologies for doublets!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:29:26 +0800 (WST)
Subject: B-Greek Archive missed a day or two

For some reason unknown to me, "jtauber@cyllene.uwa.edu.au", the account 
I use for the b-greek archive was unsubscribed some time in the last 
couple of days. As a result, recent discussions never appeared in the 
mailbox that is archived.

I presume some routine check noticed I was subscribed from two separate 
places (jtauber@cyllene and jtauber@tartarus) and promptly unsubscribed me 
from one. But there is an excellent reason why I am subscribed from two 
places! I read one and automatically archive the other.

My apologies for the postings I have missed. Hopefully it won't happen 
again (hint to whoever unsubscribed me :-)

James K. Tauber <jtauber@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Programmer and CWIS Officer
University Computing Services
University of Western Australia



------------------------------

From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 08:38:22 -0600
Subject: word processing

Re. Greek fonts in Windows--

Has anyone else here thought about using B. Mounce's Greek font?  I downloaded
a copy of Flashworks from AOL.  As part of installation, I added the
"MOUNCE.TTF" to my font que.  I have used the font experimentally once in a
WPWindows document.  It produces very nice inflected Greek.

I realize, however, that this is not the use for which Dr. Mounce wrote the
font, so I'm leery (spelling?) of recommending this as the "Best Available
Greek Font for Windows."  Which is exactly what it is.

Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University

------------------------------

From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:07:53 -0500
Subject: Re: B-Greek Archive missed a day or two

At 12:29 AM 8/26/95, James K. Tauber wrote:
>For some reason unknown to me, "jtauber@cyllene.uwa.edu.au", the account
>I use for the b-greek archive was unsubscribed some time in the last
>couple of days. As a result, recent discussions never appeared in the
>mailbox that is archived.
>
>I presume some routine check noticed I was subscribed from two separate
>places (jtauber@cyllene and jtauber@tartarus) and promptly unsubscribed me
>from one. But there is an excellent reason why I am subscribed from two
>places! I read one and automatically archive the other.
>
>My apologies for the postings I have missed. Hopefully it won't happen
>again (hint to whoever unsubscribed me :-)

James:

If it would help to fill in the gap, I can send you the Digests for the
days in question. Ever since the list became more active and started
dealing with quite interesting subjects I've been subscribing both to the
regular immediate mailings and to the daily digest just to make sure that I
have a complete archive. Just let me know whether this would be useful.

Ciao, cwc

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/



------------------------------

From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:05:29 CST
Subject: BG: Synoptic Apocalypse 

Carlton and Carl have been discussing a rather interesting question about the
differences between the gospel writers in the Synoptic Apocalypse.  I, at
least, am interested, so I will jump in and give my two cents worth.

For those unfamilar with the questions, I lay them out below in two columns.

Question #1                            Question #2

Matt. 24:3
POTE TAUTA ESTAI                       KAI TI TO SHMEION
when will these things be              and what [will be] the sign
				       THS SHS PAROUSIAS
				       of your advent
				       KAI SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS;
				       and of the full end of the age?

Mark 13:4
POTE TAUTA ESTAI                       KAI TI TO SHMEION
when will these things be              and what [will be] the sign
 				       hOTAN MELLHi TAUTA SUNTELEISQAI PANTA;
				       whenever all these things are going
				       to be fully ended?
Luke 21:7
POTE OUN TAUTA ESTAI                   KAI TI TO SHMEION
when, therefore, will these things be  and what [will be] the sign
				       hOTAN MELLHi TAUTA GINESQAI;
				       whenever these things will happen?

As all can see, the first question about time is the same in all three
accounts.  The TAUTA seems in context to refer to the previous statement of
Jesus that the stones of the temple would all be thrown down.  It is the
second question about the sign which is different in each of the three gospels.

Matthew's second question seems clearly to refer to the second coming, both by
his use of PAROUSIAS, which is often a technical term for the second coming of
Jesus, and the phrase SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS, used elsewhere in Matthew for the
end of the world.  Interestingly, just as the disciples' questions are clearly
blocked out in Matthew, so he also presents Jesus's answer in blocks
alternating between the destruction of the temple and the second coming.

Luke's second question seems clearly to continue the reference to the throwing
down of the stones of the temple by his use of TAUTA.  Also interestingly,
Luke moves most (not all) of the second coming material blocked off by Matthew
to a place by itself in Luke 17, with the result that most of Luke 21 is about
the desolation of Jerusalem, not about the second coming.

Mark's second question is the most interesting, and I take its confusing form
to mean that it is most like the original question of the disciples.  He uses
the word TAUTA to tie it in with the discussion of the destruction of the
temple, and he also uses the apocalytic verb SUNTELEISQAI "to be fully ended,"
which is used in the Greek Daniel in 11:36 and 12:7 (the cognate noun used by
Matthew is found in Dan. 9:27; 11:36; 12:4, 13).  I take this confusion of
vocabulary and topics to mean that the disciples were confused; they
apparently thought that the temple was only going to be destroyed at the end
of the world, a situation that has proven not to be the case.  Jesus's
discourse can be read coherently as a warning not to make this mistake: the
two events are different and distinct, although the fulfillment of the first
points to the ultimate fulfillment of the second.

********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769
********************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:49:16 -0400
Subject: Re: BG: Synoptic Apocalypse 

Bruce Terry wrote,
"Carlton and Carl have been discussing a rather interesting question about
the
differences between the gospel writers in the Synoptic Apocalypse.  I, at
least, am interested, so I will jump in and give my two cents worth.

For those unfamilar with the questions, I lay them out below in two columns.

Question #1                            Question #2

Matt. 24:3
POTE TAUTA ESTAI                       KAI TI TO SHMEION
when will these things be              and what [will be] the sign
           THS SHS PAROUSIAS
           of your advent
           KAI SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS;
           and of the full end of the age?

Mark 13:4
POTE TAUTA ESTAI                       KAI TI TO SHMEION
when will these things be              and what [will be] the sign
            hOTAN MELLHi TAUTA SUNTELEISQAI PANTA;
           whenever all these things are going
           to be fully ended?
Luke 21:7
POTE OUN TAUTA ESTAI                   KAI TI TO SHMEION
when, therefore, will these things be  and what [will be] the sign
           hOTAN MELLHi TAUTA GINESQAI;
           whenever these things will happen?

As all can see, the first question about time is the same in all three
accounts.  The TAUTA seems in context to refer to the previous statement of
Jesus that the stones of the temple would all be thrown down.  It is the
second question about the sign which is different in each of the three
gospels.

Matthew's second question seems clearly to refer to the second coming, both
by
his use of PAROUSIAS, which is often a technical term for the second coming
of
Jesus, and the phrase SUNTELEIAS TOU AIWNOS, used elsewhere in Matthew for
the
end of the world.  Interestingly, just as the disciples' questions are
clearly
blocked out in Matthew, so he also presents Jesus's answer in blocks
alternating between the destruction of the temple and the second coming.

Luke's second question seems clearly to continue the reference to the
throwing
down of the stones of the temple by his use of TAUTA.  Also interestingly,
Luke moves most (not all) of the second coming material blocked off by
Matthew
to a place by itself in Luke 17, with the result that most of Luke 21 is
about
the desolation of Jerusalem, not about the second coming.

Mark's second question is the most interesting, and I take its confusing form
to mean that it is most like the original question of the disciples.  He uses
the word TAUTA to tie it in with the discussion of the destruction of the
temple, and he also uses the apocalytic verb SUNTELEISQAI "to be fully
ended,"
which is used in the Greek Daniel in 11:36 and 12:7 (the cognate noun used by
Matthew is found in Dan. 9:27; 11:36; 12:4, 13).  I take this confusion of
vocabulary and topics to mean that the disciples were confused; they
apparently thought that the temple was only going to be destroyed at the end
of the world, a situation that has proven not to be the case.  Jesus's
discourse can be read coherently as a warning not to make this mistake: the
two events are different and distinct, although the fulfillment of the first
points to the ultimate fulfillment of the second."

Bruce has made some good observations.  There is no doubt that Matthew in his
wording of the second question has made clear that he (whoever he be/she be)
understands the dialogue to include ideas about parousia.

But does Mark so understand it?  Carl has rightly related this question to
Mark's whole purpose and he understands the time frame of Mark to be in the
context of the Jewish/Roman war.  I tend to think that Mark was interested in
separating these events from messianic and apocalyptic speculation of the
type that Josephus clearly indicates was going on among the Jews.  I would
accept the thesis of Beasley-Murray that Mark is a compilation of sources and
thus the emphasis is Mark's.  An article has just come out that I am eager to
study carefully.  Stephen H. Smith of England contributed an article to
Novvum Testamentum entitled A Divine Tragedy:  Som Observations on the
Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel.  He refers to some earlier studies that
have suggested the the structure of Mark was influenced by the form of the
Greek tragedy.  I am not sure yet that I can agree with this but I have long
felt that Mark sought to get his readers to embrace the world mission of the
gospel by the way he told the story.

Carlton Winbery
Fogleman Prof. NT & Greek
LA College, Pineville, LA
(318) 487-7241 Fax (318) 487-7425 off. or (318) 442-4996 home
Winbrow@aol.com or Winbery@andria.lacollege.edu

------------------------------

From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 13:28:00 -0500
Subject: Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse)

My apologies for letting that note to James Tauber go to the list; I
thought I had deleted the cc line in it and sent to himself only.

At 11:49 AM 8/26/95, WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
>                 ...  An article has just come out that I am eager to
>study carefully.  Stephen H. Smith of England contributed an article to
>Novvum Testamentum entitled A Divine Tragedy:  Som Observations on the
>Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel.  He refers to some earlier studies that
>have suggested the the structure of Mark was influenced by the form of the
>Greek tragedy.  I am not sure yet that I can agree with this but I have long
>felt that Mark sought to get his readers to embrace the world mission of the
>gospel by the way he told the story.

Interesting idea and worth checking into, certainly. It certainly appears
that the Passion Narrative has been pieced together, no doubt at least
partially from historical recollection of actual events, but also in a very
considerable degree by intense study and selection of OT passages on the
Suffering Servant and the suffering righteous man. I don't think it's an
accident that the sequence of the passion narrative has lent itself more
than any other part of the gospel to dramatic representation and settings
to music. It has also struck me often that Mark's PN (which I assume to be
the earliest surviving form of it--didn't Kelber propose that Mark even
created it?) also has in it to an extraordinary degree a characteristic of
Greek tragedy: an overhanging fate governing a sequence that appears
inevitable in its forward movement; moreover, it is a narrative (Mark's
telling, at least) permeated with a sense that all the characters imagine
that they are acting out their own intentions freely although externally
they appear to be following a determinate course, while on the other hand
Jesus, who appears to have no freedom of action at all, is the ONLY free
agent in the drama.

Wasn't there a book a few years back by Dan O. Via on patterns of Greek
comedy in the gospel? I never read it, but I remember discussing it with
John Hollar, the late editor (and previously a grad student of mine in
Classics) at Fortress Press , which published it.

One other reflection that is purely speculative but perhaps worth
mentioning. The incident of the mock coronation in the passion narrative
has struck me as a dramatic & ritual motif more than any other; wasn't
there some such humiliation of the king in the Babylonian New Year ritual?
Also, it is a scene a little bit like the selection of Claudius by the
Praetorian Guard to be emperor, perhaps originally just a playful jest that
was soon ratified in fact. I should check into Suetonius' account of the
death of Caligula or see what other sources for this there are, as my
strongest memory of it is shaped by Robert Graves' marvelous historical
novel, _I Claudius_.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/



------------------------------

From: "Paul J. Bodin" <pjbodin@sirius.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 12:07:15 EDT
Subject: Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse) 

On Sat, 26 Aug 1995, Carl W. Conrad wrote:

>At 11:49 AM 8/26/95, WINBROW@aol.com wrote:
>>                 ...  An article has just come out that I am eager to
>>study carefully.  Stephen H. Smith of England contributed an article to
>>Novvum Testamentum entitled A Divine Tragedy:  Som Observations on the
>>Dramatic Structure of Mark's Gospel.  He refers to some earlier studies that
>>have suggested the the structure of Mark was influenced by the form of the
>>Greek tragedy.  I am not sure yet that I can agree with this but I have long
>>felt that Mark sought to get his readers to embrace the world mission of the
>>gospel by the way he told the story.
>
>[...]
>
>Wasn't there a book a few years back by Dan O. Via on patterns of Greek
>comedy in the gospel? I never read it, but I remember discussing it with
>John Hollar, the late editor (and previously a grad student of mine in
>Classics) at Fortress Press , which published it.

You might both be interested in the speculative work of Dennis MacDonald
of Iliff in this regard.  He sees strong evidence of intertextuality
between the Odyssey and the Gospel of Mark.  He presented a paper with
this thesis at a Catholic Biblical Association seminar in New York
several years ago, and has recently published a paper about it.  I can't
remember the bibliographic details offhand, but it seems to me it may
have been in the JBL.

MacD. doesn't claim any simple borrowing or imitation, but he finds
influences and supports his argument with some intriguing examples.

_______________________________________________________________________
 Paul J. Bodin                            Internet: pjbodin@sirius.com
 Seminary Pastor                             smail: 1333 66th Street
 Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary              Berkeley, CA 94702



------------------------------

From: "Gregory Jordan (ENG)" <jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 15:20:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: BG: Divine Tragedy (was Synoptic Apocalypse)

For the PN, "the Scriptures must be fulfilled" (Mark 14:49) and Jesus's 
own predictions (e.g., 4:30) play the role of the oracles, omens, and 
prophecies in Greek tragedy, the working out of fate through the mouths 
of the gods.  But in Greek tragey, the irony and horror is that the 
protagonist struggles to avoid fate.  How does this relate to the PN?  
And what catharsis, if any, does the PN provide?

But I don't see the formal properties of Greek tragedy in Mark - the 
chorus, the narrative moved by long chains of dialogue, etc. 
(perhaps the scope of one day is relevant, though I think that is not an 
Aristotelian requirement).  One must make allowances for a native Jewish 
tradition of tragedy - e.g., the story of David, even the story of Israel 
itself - it's fall from greatness, it's repeated warnings by the 
prophets, and it's final defeat in the Captivity.  Jesus is 
recapitulating God's dealings with Israel - as God, abandoned by 
Israel - and as Israel, abandoned by God.

Greg Jordan
jordan@chuma.cas.usf.edu

------------------------------

From: PaulENY@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 18:26:07 -0400
Subject: GENETIC Choices/Christian Morals 

I just finished reading an article in The Living Pulpit entitled
"New Genetic Choices" by Sidney Callahan.

The author raises some serious questions about genetic
information obtained by scientific procedures, the possibility
of designing "acceptable" children through genetic engineering,
and explores how Christian morality might answer these
questions.

For example, one of the big societal debates is whether or not
it is moral for parents to selectively destroy embryos with
genetic defects that will lead to conditions such as
retardation, dementia, or being handicapped, until an embryo
with an "acceptable" genetic structure is achieved.

The author takes the position that using scientific knowledge
to destroy human life crosses the line into a moral abuse of
technology.  He states, "I think the best moral guidelines ensure
that the protection of the most vulnerable lives takes precedence
over the goals and interests of the more powerful."

I agree with the author because if this is acceptable, at what
point will it stop?  Will embryos possessing genetic traits for
being a certain height, certain hair or eye color be at some
time deemed unacceptable?  By the way, you can get an
electronic copy of this article or a brochure about The Living
Pulpit by sending e-mail to "Livpulpit@AOL.com"

Does anyone have any impressions about genetic engineering
and how Christianity might answer these important questions?
It's a topic that needs to be addressed as science keeps
advancing in this area and the possibility of genetic
engineering becomes more and more real.  Any thoughts on it?

Paul




------------------------------

From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:53:31 -0500
Subject: Re: GENETIC Choices/Christian Morals

At 5:26 PM 8/26/95, PaulENY@aol.com wrote:
>I just finished reading an article in The Living Pulpit entitled
>"New Genetic Choices" by Sidney Callahan.

With all due respect, I think this may well be an interesting topic, but as
it has nothing to do with the Greek text of the New Testament, I really
think this is the wrong forum for it.


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/



------------------------------

From: "VERNON W. REID, ST. JOHN'S, NF. VREID@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA" <vreid@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:51:47 -0230
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe b-greek

------------------------------

From: "Reid,Vernon;=9300013" <VREID@kean.ucs.mun.ca>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:52:48 +0200 (IST)
Subject: To: b-greek@virginia.edu

unsubscribe b-greek

------------------------------

From: Davant@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 22:56:13 -0400
Subject: RESEARCH 

First of all, I apologize if this is not the proper forum to ask. Can someone
tell me where, if it is available, I can get the Apostolic Fathers in greek
text? Preferrably, e-text. If not e-text, then text. However, it must be in
greek (or Latin for post Apostolic Fathers). Also, I would need to know if it
has a guide or index.
Davant

------------------------------

From: David Housholder <73423.2015@compuserve.com>
Date: 26 Aug 95 22:57:51 EDT
Subject: Pocket Greek NT?

When I am going out, to the library, on an errand trip where there will be
waiting times, or on a longer trip out of town, and I want to carry a Greek NT
with me, I usually look at my UBS 3.1 (= 3, corrected -- I still don't like the
look of 4) and NA27 and decide not to take one. They just take too much room. My
older NA26 is a possibility as it is smaller. The older still 24 or 25 or
whatever it is is even better (but I leave that in India with the rest of my
divided library).

Anyway, what I am suggesting is that I would like to have a slim Greek NT that
is easy to stick in my pocket or tuck in a corner of a briefcase. The "easy" way
to produce that would be to print a Grk NT without the apparatus; just provide
the text.

What I'm wondering is whether any of you have wished for a similar product. If
so, there might be a basis for suggesting it to the publishers.

David Housholder (DavidHousholder@XC.Org)
writing at 8:59 PM on Saturday, August 26, 1995


------------------------------

From: David Housholder <73423.2015@compuserve.com>
Date: 26 Aug 95 22:57:55 EDT
Subject: apologies for doublets!

It looks as though Paul Miller and I were both victims of a problem I think has
come up here before. The result was the double posting of my response to the
question of Greek/Hebrew fonts.

The problem was that I received a message containing the following:

>>Message Recipients:    cas@dei.uminho.pt: transfer failure -- MTA congestion

And it told me delivery of my b-greek message had failed. I resent it, received
the same message, but by then received a reply from a list member showing me
that the message had, in fact, gone through.

May we safely ignore these failure messages?

David Housholder (DavidHousholder@XC.Org)
writing at 8:54 PM on Saturday, August 26, 1995


------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #837
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