b-greek-digest V1 #844

b-greek-digest            Friday, 1 September 1995      Volume 01 : Number 844

In this issue:

        Re: Pocket Greek NT 
        Re: Galatians 1:10
        Re: BG: Barbara Aland's view on Majority Text
        Re: eight case or five?
        Reuben Swanson's textual apparatus appearing
        ANE: FYI, TMA symposium
        IE-L: Q? Greek verb, o vs. a
        Re: Synoptic Apocalypse 
        Thiede on NT papyri 
        gk, hebrew text/wp 
        Q? "AUX-drop"
        Re: Galatians 1:10


From: Prchr@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 02:23:04 -0400
Subject: Grammars 

In a message dated 95-08-30 22:31:40 EDT, KevLAnder@aol.com writes:

>Subj:	Eight cases or five?
>Date:	95-08-30 22:31:40 EDT
>From:	KevLAnder@aol.com
>To:	b-greek@virginia.edu
>I could go into a lecture about comparative philology in defense of the
>eight-case system, but I won't since most interested persons can read such
>information in Dana & Mantey or A.T. Robertson.
>When I have taught Greek to new students at Nazarene Theological Seminary
>(Kansas City), I have taught the eight-case system. I used Ray Summers'
>grammar. I believe that when students learn the eight-case system from the
>beginning they are the better prepared to interface with both systems more
>easily. I never found eight-cases to be more confusing to students than
>If anything, exposure to the eight-case system drove home the fact that case
>function is more significant for interpretation than case form. Oh, and by
>the way, I used Brooks & Winbery during second semester Greek as the grammar
>of choice to consult in tandem with translation of 1 John, largely because
>they have incorporated the eight-case system into their explanations of
>I must hasten to add that when I teach Greek again in the future I will
>probably use David Alan Black's excellent grammar. Although he does not use
>the eight-case system, his grammar has the quality of being concise in its
>explanations and in its presentation of morphology as Summers is. So it can
>be seen that I do not think that eight cases vs. five cases is a life or
>death issue.
Has anyone used Lasor's Inductive Grammar?  It is not the normal paradigm
based method, but it is the way I learned Greek.  I was able to conquer the
verb system in less than a week because of the way he presents it.  It is a
nightmare for a reference work, but was a real help in my learning the

For the record I prefer the 8 case system to the five.  Interpretation is the
name of the game.


From: Prchr@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 02:23:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pocket Greek NT 

In a message dated 95-08-31 01:40:34 EDT, you write:

>Subj:	Re: Pocket Greek NT
>Date:	95-08-31 01:40:34 EDT
>From:	BBezdek@aol.com
>To:	b-greek@virginia.edu
>Just a suggestion:
>Has anyone contacted Logos Research Systems?  This is a non-profit
>organization (The Electronic Bible Society)  They already have the following
>Greek texts:
>Byzantine/Majority Textform
>Nestle-Aland 26th/UBS 3rd
>Textus Receptus Stephen's 1550
>Textus Receptus Scribner's  1891
>Logos Research Systems are actively involved in getting as many classical
>Greek, Hebrew, and other  tools in electronic format for as possible 

I am the editor of the Scrivener text for both Logos and Bible Works
(Hermeneutika)  The CD Rom version of Logos isgood for research while version
1.6 is better for injection into a word processor. 


From: David Anvar <anvar@garnet.berkeley.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:24:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Galatians 1:10

Travis Bauer wrote:
>>        I'm reading Calvin's commentary on Galatians.  On verse 1:10, he 
>>asserts that there is an assumed kata in the verse so that it should be 
>>translated, "Do I seek to persuade according to men or God," rather 
>>than "Do I seek to please men or God?"  He states that there is often an 
>>implied kata in situations like verse 10. It this generally accepted.  If 
>>so, how can one identify such situations?

Afterwards Edgar Krentz wrote:
>I did two things to answer your question. I first checked a series of
>commentaries on my shelves: Burton (ICC), Betz (Hermeneia), Dunn (BNTC),
>Lietzmann (HNT), Guthrie (NCB), Oepke (ThHKNT), Rohde (ThHKNT, newest
>ed)Bruce (NIGTC),J.B. Lightfoot, Schlier (KEK, 13th ed.), Luehrmann
>(Continental commentary),Lagrange, Bring, and Ebeling....
                <Text Removed>
>...the consensus of commentators appears to be against Calvin's
>interpretation. And so it is *not* generally accepted. 


It does seem that the consensus of opinions rest against Calvin's 
interpretation of Gal 1:10, but I thought you may be interested in
another reference I came across in John Brown's exposition of Galatians.
(A reprint of the William Oliphant & Sons, 1853 version) on pages 49-50 
(I'll quote in English) "Calvin supposes an ellipsis, 'Do I respect
men or God in my persuasions?' All these (referring to interpretations
 including Calvin's)  expositions are unsatisfactory..."  Brown also gives
reference to Bos who was for a time was of the same opinion as Calvin. 
See Bos *Ellipses*, Glasg. 1813.  The latter editions of the work do not
have the explanation.  I don't have the book, but perhaps if you know 
someone with many commentaries on their shelves you may be luck. :)

David Anvar
U.C. Berkeley
"For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." 


From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 09:30:53 PDT
Subject: Re: BG: Barbara Aland's view on Majority Text

terry@bible.acu.edu asked, a few weeks ago:
> On page 155 of Aland and Aland's _The Text of the New Testament, we read:
> "In fact, the 'Majority Text"...
>                   ...may yet prove to hold a multiple significance for the
> history of the text (cf. the high number of type 1/2 readings in a good many
> manuscripts).  But Barbara Aland's views on this cannot be tested
> systematically until the critical apparatus of Nestle-Aland26 has been put on
> tape (which is now being done) and been examined by computer from all the
> necessary perspectives."
> Does anyone on this listserver know what Barbara Aland's views that are
> referred to here but not explained are exactly?

This mention of Barbara Aland's views was not present in the 1st edition,
so perhaps they are new.  I do not know what the views are, but even if they
are eventually tested "from all the necessary perspectives" the test won't be
repeatable, because the Munster folks don't release their machine-readable data.

The 1993 Text und Textwert volumes for Acts (the latest installment from
Munster) discusses the high number (how high is high?) of "1/2" readings in
the Apostolos MSS.  The thoughts presented there (not necessarily of B Aland,
perhaps just her students) were fundamentally confused in two respects:
1:  they seemed not to be aware of the critical effect of sampling bias, and
2:  they seemed not to be aware of the circular reasoning underlying
their approach of measuring MS "Wert" by means of similarity to NA26.

This latter consideration was illuminated by the excellent article
    Ehrman, Bart, "A Problem of Textual Circularity: The Alands on
    the Classification of NT MSS," in _Biblica_ 70 (1989) 377-88.
Ehrman already mentioned this article in his pleasantly self-effacing way
on b-greek, but it's worth a toot from my horn in addition.

Vincent Broman,  code 786 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641


From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:54:35 -0600
Subject: Re: eight case or five?

Roy Millhouse asked some questions about the Greek case system:

>I was wondering about the reasons between some choosing an eight case system
>and others a five case.  I know of the top that the eight case is more
>focused on usage and the five case on structure, but what makes one decide to
>go with one or the other?

As you will see below, I think pedagogical decisions underlie one's choice,
when one considers the level of linguistic knowledge of students.
>Along the same lines, do those using an eight case system start beginning
>students on it right away?  It seems like it might be confusing to do so,
>since right away they would need to determine whether the form they are
>looking at is, say, a genitive or an ablative.  But then, maybe students
>would learn better if they were concentrating on more than just memorizing

Some begin at once, others introduce the eight case system later.
>It also seems that the eight case system is not a popular today (though I
>don't think Dr. Winbery has revised his _Syntax of NTG_, and its probably on
>everyone's shelf!).  Is it dying out as, perhaps, the popularity of A. T.
>Robertson wanes? 
>Where do the linguists stand on this?  Is function more important in
>classification than form?  Or, does form get preminence in a language that
>has such an easy breakdown?

One answer is that compartive linguists see the language in the light of
its antecedents. Here is a citation from a classic text (Carl Darling
Buck,_Comparitive Grammar of Greek and Latin._ Chicago: University of
Chicago Press, 1933 + later impressions, p.171, par. 228.):

"The parent speech had eight cases, the six that are known in Latin,
together with the locative and instrumental, whose names and uses are
familiar to students of Latin syntax.

"The dative and ablative plural had the same form, likewise the genitive
and ablative singular except in o-stems. The vocative plural had the same
form as the nominative except that the accent was sometimes different.

"In Latin the old ablative, locative, and instrumental are merged in the
ablative. The locative survives as a regular case in Oscan-Umbrian (e.g.
efsef terei 'in eo territorio'), but in Latin only in isolated forms like
_humei_, etc.

"In Greek the old genitive and ablate are merged in the genitive; the
dative, locative, and instrumental in the dative.

"a. Eight cases are preserved in Indo-Iranian; seven in Balto-Slavic (where
genetive and ablative are merged); seven in Oscan-Umbrian; six in Latin;
five in Greek (four in Modern Greek), where the dateive is obsolete in the
spoken language); four in Celtic and Germanic (as still in German); two
(;for the noun) in present English; one (for the noun) in French, Italian,

" ... The merging of two or more cases in one ... is known as case
syncretism ....

If interested, you might also look at L. R. Palmer, _The Greek Language_
(Atlantic Highlands, NJ: Humanities Press, 180) pp. 266ff.--though his
discussion may be opaque, if you have not worked in historical linguistics.

Historical grammar lets us know that there were eight cases. There are
vestiges of some of these cases in unusual words. Greek XAMAI ("on the
ground") is often identified as a survival of the locative case.

When I teach beginning Greek, I teach the five case system. When students
are in advanced classes, I teach them that one can infer all the uses of
cases from the basic eight case system. What one teaches, and when, is a
matter of teaching strategy. If one understands the function of the
nominative case, then the so-called "hanging nominative" or the use of the
nominative as a vocative makes sense.

So where do linguists stand on this? Historical linguists (using a
diachronic method) understand how the usages of the five case system
reflect the earlier eight case system in the usage of Greek or Latin.
Descriptive structural linguists (using a synchronic analysis of language
in a given period or collection of texts, such as the Septuagint or the New
Testament, e.g. Nida) seek to describe the use of the language as it occurs
in these texts. 

In both cases, the analysis also is based on charqcteristics of the
language in use at a particular time. In some respects the eight case
system is more useful for the study of Attic Greek and Greek dialects prior
to Alexander than it is for thke Greek of the Early Roman Empire.

Is the use of the eight case system losing out. Yes, in part (I suspect)
because fewer scholars of the New Testament read widely in claissical and
Koine Greek outside the biblical texts than was the case, e.g. with A. T.
Robertson or 

Your question about the preeminence of form or function is unanswerale. In
teaching beginners the language, form takes priority. In analysis of
meaning, once forms are no longer a problem and sytax assumes more and more
importance to the learner, function becomes more significant. At least that
is one person's outcome from attempting to teach the language.

You pose some global questions; one can only give perspective answers, I fear.

Cordially, Ed Krentz

Edgar Krentz <emkrentz@mcs.com>
New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Voice: 312-753-0752; FAX: 312-753-0782


From: Vincent Broman <broman@np.nosc.mil>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 10:15:20 PDT
Subject: Reuben Swanson's textual apparatus appearing

Dr. Swanson's very substantial textual apparatus for Matthew, viz.

    ed. Swanson, Reuben J, "New Testament Greek Manuscripts:
    Variant Readings arranged in Horizontal Lines against
    Codex Vaticanus", Pt. I Matthew, Preliminary Printing,
    William Carey International Univ., Pasadena, 1994,

was just a pilot printing for a more ambitious publication.  In talking
with him recently, I found out that he has completed the four gospels in
May and has commenced with Acts.  The Gospels apparatus should appear
in print in two-three months, jointly from WCIU Press and Sheffield Press
in the UK.

I can hardly wait!

Vincent Broman,  code 786 Bayside                        Email: broman@nosc.mil
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA  92152-6147,  USA                          Phone: +1 619 553 1641


From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:06:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ANE: FYI, TMA symposium

our circle of lings/lang&lit for tense mood aspect at the U of Toronto
is organizing a North American/International symposium for the 27-28th,
Sept 1996

"The Verb: Explorations in Tense, Mood and Aspect"
[tentative title]

the idea is to find a specific area,e.g.,in Semitics or Classics, with
theoretical import for the general theory of TMA; and the conf is
meant to be "interdisciplinary".

if there is anyone interested in such a major project, or knows
someone who would be, please contact me by email ASAP. our "yes" list is
filling up, and will be final by Sept 30 this fall. [n.b., this is not
open to graduate students.] we will need 1) title/abstract
[tentative], 2) CV, 3) guess at airfare, costs.

Vincent DeCaen  decaen@epas.utoronto.ca
c/o Near Eastern Studies Dept, 4 Bancroft Ave 3d floor, U of Toronto,
Toronto ON, M5S 1A1


From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:27:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IE-L: Q? Greek verb, o vs. a

can someone briefly explain the /a/ vs /o/ contrast in the Greek verb
and the apparent relative tense/"backshifting" involved:

1. participles:
NonPast:	lu.o.nt.os (Pres),  lu.s.o.nt.os ("Fut")
Past:			lu.s.a.nt.os

2. optative
NonPast:	lu.o.i.mi (Pres), lu.s.o.i.mi (Fut)
vs. Past:		  lu.s.a.i.mi
   cf. 3. infinitives
lu.ein, lu.s.ein   vs. lu.s.ai

and how is this /a/ related if at all to the endings of the aorist and
perfect:  -a<*-a.m, -a.s, -e<*-a.t??, -a.men, -a.te, -a.n/-a.si

can't find an explanation in the grammars, and I'm really curious
about the relative backshifting involved in the contrast.

many thanks in advance,


From: dipbt1@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 13:54:09 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [none]




From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:17:18 CST
Subject: Re: Synoptic Apocalypse 

On Wed, 30 Aug 1995, Tim Staker wrote:

>  I have to disagree with Jan Haugland that the little apocalypse contains
>the historically accurate logia of Jesus.  This particular passage borrows
>heavily on language and vocab from Dan 7:13; 9:27; 11:31; 12:1-2; 12:12;   Ex
>9:18;    Is 8:21; 13:13; 19:2;   2 Chron 15:6; Ez 7:12-16;  4 Esdras
>13:30-32; 6:25;  etc.

Personally, I do not disagree with Jan about this, only about how to
understand the logia.  The fact that there are striking similarities between
this discourse by Jesus and Old Testament passages is not strange, nor does it
disprove their historicity; many things that Jesus said have their roots in
the Old Testament.  He was a man of the Book, an example for us.

I do doubt that the language of the synoptic apocalypse borrows from 4 Esdras. 
It is most likely the other way around.  That work is so influenced by
Christianity that it must have originated after most, if not all, of the New
Testament.  Metzger says something similar in his introduction to the Oxford
RSV Apocrypha: late first to third century A.D. origin.

Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769


From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:53:22 -0600
Subject: Thiede on NT papyri 

Last spring there was a string about the claims of Carsten P. Thiede to
identify a Magdalen papyrus as a gospel text. There has been little posted
since then

The fall announcements of Trinity Press International announce two books to
be published in October. Those who read this string may want to look at

(1) Carsten P, Thiede. _Re-Kindling the Word. Jesus, Qumran and the Papyri_
(Valley Forge: TPI, 1995). 

The copy describing the book says this is a "collection of the most
important and controversial essays on the New Testament and Near Eastern
subjects by the German scholar Carsten P. Thiede-including his world famous
essay on the Magdalen Papyrus and the redating of the Gospels.

(2) Graham Stanton. _Gospel Truth? New Light on Jesus and the Gospels_
(Valley Forge: TPI, 1995).

Publisher's comment: "_Gospel Truth_ is a full-scale response to these
claims." The book also presents Stanton's views on the evidence for the
life and teachings of Jesus.

(I get no commission from Trinity Press International.)

Edgar Krentz <emkrentz@mcs.com>
New Testament, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Voice: 312-753-0752; FAX: 312-753-0782


From: Les Ballard <lesball@beacon.regent.edu>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:06:48 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe 

        Please unsubscribe me from b-greek.


From: PSRoadKill@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:01:29 -0400
Subject: Worship 

Hello... I have a quick question for all of you... But first I'd like you to
know a couple bits of background information (Why I'm writing this)... First
off I'm not a member of any mailing groups at the moment, school and other
stuff keeps me way to busy to weed through the loads of mail that I'd receive
everyday... But anyway, I'm a teenager and I've been asked to teach a class
for our Sunday Morning Bible Studies... I would like to cover worship... But,
I know absolutely nothing about Greek and Hebrew... Because of this, I can
occasionally miss certain meanings and definitions that would be very heplful
in a study... So, if there is anyone out these wh ohas a good grasp of these
languages (or the Bible in general)... I'd appreciate any information you
could give me...

My basic topic is as follows:  What exactly is worship??  Is worship sitting
and staring at some preacher?  I don't think so... It's much deeper than
that... And, this should be a good study whether or not I actually decide to
use it as my topic in the class...

But, here's basically what I would like to know:  What's the background of
worship?  Where does the word come from?  What does it literally mean?  And
stuff of that nature... 

So, any information would be appreciated... 

  In Christian Love
   Brian Fisher


From: Andrew Porter <aporter@ccnet.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 17:14:38 -0700
Subject: gk, hebrew text/wp 

now for something completely different;
i recently installed TeX (and its fonts) for
Linux on an 386; it comes with gk, hebrew, cyrillic,
tamil, thai, devanagari, etc. etc. etc.,
and it is completely *FREE* ... but you have to 
use TeX.  (the media is not free if youbuy it, but 
less than $50., and Slackware Linux is a real Unix,
and it does what Win95 is supposed to do, but does it right.)
I haven't had occasion to use TeX much yet,
but the stuff is there.  

- - andrew porter, aporter@ccnet.com,
Livermore, CA


From: Vincent DeCaen <decaen@epas.utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:26:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Q? "AUX-drop"

I'm wondering if someone can point me to literature on what I've been
calling "AUX-drop" or to examples in other languages.  you get it in
Biblical Hebrew in the AUX "to be", root hyy.  Hebrew otherwise makes
a binary tense/aspect contrast; but in the AUX you can get zero,
creating a three-way distinction, in which case the nonpast/imperf is
generally read as "future":

yiktob "he writes, etc"
katab "he wrote, etc"
yihye "he will be"	*yihye koteb "he will be writing"
hu 0 "he is" [hu "he"]	hu 0 koteb "he is writing"
haya "he was"		haya koteb "he was writing"

now, what is of interest to me is the way this 3<2 distinction can
also get grammaticalized, as apparently in the Classical systems.

Latin (3s) amaa-b-(i)t	amaaw-er-(i)t	cf. Greek (pt) lu-s-(o)nt-
	ama-0-t		amaaw-0-(i)t			lu-0-(o)nt-
	amaa-ba-t	amaaw-era-t			lu-sa-nt-
	 < AUX *b-	  < AUX *er-<*es-	  < AUX *s- (??)
I've gotten the impression that this is not an isolated phenomenon.
Any help at all in pursuing this idea will be greatly appreciated.


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:48:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Galatians 1:10

David Anvar <anvar@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:

>It does seem that the consensus of opinions rest against Calvin's
>interpretation of Gal 1:10, but I thought you may be interested in
>another reference I came across in John Brown's exposition of Galatians.
>(A reprint of the William Oliphant & Sons, 1853 version) on pages 49-50
>(I'll quote in English) "Calvin supposes an ellipsis, 'Do I respect
>men or God in my persuasions?' All these (referring to interpretations
> including Calvin's)  expositions are unsatisfactory..."  Brown also gives
>reference to Bos who was for a time was of the same opinion as Calvin.
>See Bos *Ellipses*, Glasg. 1813.  The latter editions of the work do not
>have the explanation.  I don't have the book, but perhaps if you know
>someone with many commentaries on their shelves you may be luck. :)

	Also, you might check out Luther on this verse.  Although his
position is not completely clear, he does appear to favor the same
interpretation as Calvin.  Is it possible that Calvin was influenced by
Luther's interpretation here? 

David L. Moore                             Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida                               of the  Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us           Department of Education


End of b-greek-digest V1 #844


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