b-greek-digest V1 #918
b-greek-digest Friday, 20 October 1995 Volume 01 : Number 918
In this issue:
Any standards here?
Looking for a good Koine text
Re: I Timothy 2:15
Re: Porter on the present
Re: Any standards here?
Re: Any standards here?
Eph. 4:9 again
Re: Eph. 4:9 again
Re: I Timothy 2:15
2 Tim 2:15
help with references re an unpopular topic on this list
Re: David and Eric
From: Jon DeMersseman <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 01:31:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Any standards here?
I'm new to the list. I've noticed quite a variety of transliteration
attempts, and I was wondering if there has been any discussion of adopting
one particular approach, since we lack the ability to type Greek here.
From: Jon DeMersseman <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 01:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for a good Koine text
I'm a third semester student of Attic Greek. Can anyone recommend a good
text made for students going from Attic to Koine?
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 05:40:22 -0500
Subject: Re: I Timothy 2:15
At 10:04 PM 10/18/95, Donald Meadows wrote:
>Some joker at College put me on this list. I didn't. TAKE ME OFF IT. It's
>clogging up my mail. Thanks
You're going about it the wrong way, although unintentionally. Addressing
an "unsubscribe" request to the address that is meant for discussion simply
sends that message to every subscriber, not to the list-owner or
listserver. The following message was sent everyone at the outset:
>>To unsubscribe from this list write
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I hope this will help you get unsubscribed.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
email@example.com OR firstname.lastname@example.org
From: "Philip L. Graber" <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:00:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Porter on the present
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, Mari Olsen wrote:
> I guess that's my point--also, apparently, not too clear--there IS no
> difference in meaning that may be reflected in an English translation,
At least not one that has been worked out and systematically adopted yet.
> since the two forms (in the case you mentioned) are equivalent. THe
> theory is just cleaned up, so that what we THOUGHT was English and
> Greek 'tense' is not. The longer answer is that the Greek present is
> marked for imperfective aspect (not tense), and the English present is
> unmarked for both tense and aspect. The English form may therefore,
> by pragmatic implicature (e.g. in the context you mentioned) take on
> the imperfective meaning, namely focus on a situation as it is
> unfolding in time (rather than the perfective focus on a complete(d)
> situation). In other words, to understand what the Greek present means, you
> need to look at what imperfective aspect is, rather than what the
> English translation is in a particular case.
Since Greek present has imperfective aspect, I wonder if a legitimate
option for translating it in narrative (i.e. when it is "historical
present") is the way the imperfect is often translated in a very literal
translation: i.e. LEGEI = "he was saying," rather than "he said." I
believe that Levinsohn wants to say that the historical present
(especially with verbs of saying where it is mostly used in the
synoptics) has a backgrounding effect rather than a highlighting one. One
of the questions I have had since reading Mari's dissertation is what the
difference is between present and imperfect tense when used in narrative.
(Now I have switched to talking about what it means, no longer how to
translate it.) I had suspected that present was a device for making
prominent, but I am not so sure, especially in light of Levinsohn's
discussion in his Coursebook.
Philip Graber Graduate Division of Religion
Graduate Student in New Testament 211 Bishops Hall, Emory University
firstname.lastname@example.org Atlanta, GA 30322 USA
From: Bruce Terry <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:28:17 CST
Subject: Re: Any standards here?
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Jon DeMersseman wrote:
>I'm new to the list. I've noticed quite a variety of transliteration
>attempts, and I was wondering if there has been any discussion of adopting
>one particular approach, since we lack the ability to type Greek here.
This has been posted before, but there is always a need to repost it since we
have new subscribers to the list.
There is no standard transliteration scheme on B-Greek. However, most people
will use one of the following six schemes. Note that these schemes use either
upper case or lower case, not both, since a change in case may signify a
LETTERS TLG/CCAT Simplified Modified Standard
ACCENTS Beta Code CAPS Lower CAPS Lower Digraph
alpha A A a A a a
beta B B b B b b
gamma G G g G g g
delta D D d D d d
epsilon E E e E e e
zeta Z Z z Z z z
eta H H E H E E
theta Q Q q Q q th
iota I I i I i i
kappa K K k K k k
lambda L L l L l l
mu M M m M m m
nu N N n N n n
xi C C c X x x
omicron O O o O o o
pi P P p P p p
rho R R r R r r
sigma S S s S s s
tau T T t T t t
upsilon U U u U u u
phi F F f F f ph
chi X X x C c ch
psi Y Y y V v ps
omega W W O W O O
digamma V f w
koppa q q
iota subscript | i i
smooth breathing )
rough breathing ( h ( h h h
acute accent / / / /
circumflex accent = @ = ~
grave accent \ \ \ \
The following are the same for all schemes.
upper case *
(following character is upper case)
raised dot (colon) :
question mark :
Note that both medial and final sigma are transliterated the same.
Accents are usually omitted for all schemes except TLG unless they are
necessary for the sense of the post.
Breathing marks and the * to indicate upper-case are written at the beginning
of the word.
Accents and diacritical marks are written directly after the coding for the
character above and below which they are located in the source document. They
follow the second character of a diphthong.
Note on TLG/CCAT Beta code keyboard layout: This was originally created to
enable appropriate software programs to translate TLG coded texts into
different Greek fonts used by different platforms.
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: firstname.lastname@example.org
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
From: Stephen Carlson <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 9:18:05 EDT
Subject: Re: Any standards here?
Jon DeMersseman wrote:
> I'm new to the list. I've noticed quite a variety of transliteration
> attempts, and I was wondering if there has been any discussion of adopting
> one particular approach, since we lack the ability to type Greek here.
There are no stardards, but the following approach is popular on this list:
Greek Alphabet: A B G D E Z H Q I K L M N C O P R S T U F X Y W
rough breathing:h, iota subscript:i, digamma:w; acute:/, grave:\, circumflex:=
Accents are optional but occasionally useful.
Stephen Carlson : Poetry speaks of aspirations, : ICL, Inc.
firstname.lastname@example.org : and songs chant the words. : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330 : Shujing 2:35 : Reston, VA 22091 USA
From: Carolivia Herron <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:09:12 +0000
October 19, 1995
Ioudaios-L is an internet discussion group that
identifies itself as focusing on first century
Judaism and which in fact specializes in
discussing all Hellenic Judaism of whatever
period. I have found it to be an extremely
informed and stimulating forum even in
pre-Hellenic Judaism and other interests
of Ancient Near Eastern Studies.
You can subscribe by sending a message
to listserv@lehigh,edu stating
SUBSCRIBE Ioudaios-L Firstname Lastname .
Harvard Divinity School and Hebrew College
The corridor of the future is long,
is it perhaps infinite.
From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:28:13 -0500 (EST)
John DeMersseman has asked a good question, a recommendation for "a good
text made for students going from Attic to Koine". He is a third semester
student of Attic Greek.
The answer is that I don't think there is such a book, at least
not in English and in print. I was long ago in your shoes, with the
University of Chicago offering only Classical Greek, and having to
move into Hellenistic Greek on my own; and for 15 years I have been teaching
students to read the New Testament who are in exactly your shoes, having
had a minimum of three semesters of Classical Greek.
Blass-Debrunner's grammar (in English, trans. bu Funk who somewhat
"edited" it) is of course aimed at you, who have had classical Greek--which
is why it is difficult for those who have not had the Attic first. BUT,
it is not a textbook, and I think you are really wanting that. Maybe
Carl Conrad has had some experience like mine, and has located something.
But I suspect the best solution is to get a good "intermediate"-type
grammar, and do your best with that. I know that Carlton Winbery and
Bill Mounce (both on this List) have done books that would help you
in this regard, in each case easier to use than Blass-Debrunner (but not
aimed at your specific needs, sorry!).
Of course, the good news is that you can just forget about some
things which are disappearing, like the dual, and mostly the optative
(though it still shows up occasionally, sometimes most delightfully).
And finding that Attic's -tt- has given way to the -ss- of other
dialects can be mastered in about ten seconds!
From: Eric Weiss <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 10:11:17 -24000
Subject: Eph. 4:9 again
>From: Eric Weiss <email@example.com>
>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 12:51:54 -24000
>Subject: Eph 4:9 "Lower parts of the earth"
>If, as Young and Zerwick claim, it should be translated "into
>the lower parts, that is, the earth," rather than referring to
>Christ's descent into the underworld, 1) who or what are the
>captives Christ led (4:8), and 2) how is He to fill all things
>(4:10) if He doesn't also descend into the lower parts of the
>earth (cf. Phil. 2:10)?
Thank you all for your responses on this, though I noted that most of the
responses were about what is (or whether this is) an "epexegetic genitive" or
"genitive of apposition" and only occasionally touched on the above part of
my message. I did appreciate the lengthy responses about what Paul may have
meant by this in the context of his other statements related to Christ
filling all things, being in authority over all things, etc.
Our computers were down the last few days, so I may not have gotten all the
responses. WERE THERE OR ARE THERE other comments on or responses to my
questions 1) and 2) above? It seems to me that this phrase ("lower parts of
the earth") must be understood in the context of the "captives" and who/what
they are, and my understanding of the "captives"--either the righteous dead
or the spiritual powers of the underworld--would support the traditional
understanding that He went into the lower parts of the earth, i.e.,
sheol/hades. (Again, maybe Lincoln's discussion in his commentary addresses
this, and I hope to track down a copy soon.)
* * *
ALSO (to respond to a post referencing Wallace's grammar): Last week the
guys at the DTS bookstore told me that MARCH 1996 (first it was August 95,
then November 95, then December 95) is now the expected date of Dan Wallace's
grammar. Xerox copies of the first half (nouns, adjectives, etc.) are
available and are being used by the 2nd year Greek students at DTS. No
drafts of the second half (verbs, participles, etc.) are for sale. With no
disrespect to Dr. Wallace intended (I fully understand why deadlines and
desired publication dates are sometimes missed), maybe Zondervan should
change the title of his book to "Wallace 96."
(I know they already changed the title to BEYOND THE BASICS or something
similar to the title of Mounce's book, which is the first volume in this
* * *
At the risk of adding fuel to a finally-dying fire, it seems to me that those
who are cessationists with regard to the spiritual gifts are actually
"liberals" in this regard (though they usually consider themselves to be
theological conservatives), whereas those who believe things should continue
as they were in the beginning of the church are the true "conservatives" in
this area of theology. Maybe what one means by "liberal" and "conservative"
is in the eye of the belabeler. But perhaps my biases are showing ....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 12:08:06 -0400
From: David Moore <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:43:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Eph. 4:9 again
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Eric Weiss wrote:
> At the risk of adding fuel to a finally-dying fire, it seems to me that those
> who are cessationists with regard to the spiritual gifts are actually
> "liberals" in this regard (though they usually consider themselves to be
> theological conservatives), whereas those who believe things should continue
> as they were in the beginning of the church are the true "conservatives" in
> this area of theology. Maybe what one means by "liberal" and "conservative"
> is in the eye of the belabeler. But perhaps my biases are showing ....
With regard to the cessationist position on biblical
interpretation, as that position is practiced today, I would suggest that
it is rather an extreme form of dispensationalism than a form of
liberalism. But to discuss this, it would be necessary to quite a ways
toward the theological side of the spectrum, so I'll forbear.
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
email@example.com Department of Education
From: Donald Meadows <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 04:34:35 +1000 (GMT+1000)
Subject: Re: I Timothy 2:15
I have not yet been taken off this list. I DID NOT PUT MYSELF ON IT.
please help, I can't find my own letters these days.
From: John Albu <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sinaiticus/Vaticanus
Last month David Rising <firstname.lastname@example.org> asked about the possibility of
obtaining copies of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. A complete color facsimile
edition of Vaticanus 1209 will be published shortly by the Istituto
Poligrafico dello Stato, Italy.
John Albu <email@example.com>
From: David John Marotta <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: 19 Oct 95 09:53:53 EDT
Subject: 2 Tim 2:15
On the discussion of 2 Tim 2:15 the passage reads:
she shall be saved (through child-birth/child-rasing) IF she continues
I think the the dia + gen in this case is the circumstantial use.
through the circumstance of child-raising. (There is also the
question of child-raising verses child birth. The question both
here and in the curse in Genesis is "Is it just child-birth, or
else the whole process of child-raising, parallel to Adam's work
(toiling with the weeds of the ground) being cursed so is Eve's work
of raising the children.
At any rate, if you take out the circumstantial "through the circumstance
of child-raising" you have the statement:
she shall be saved if she continues in faith.
Which I believe is very orthodox and uncontroversial.
These are my rememberances of having studied this passage, and I
David John Marotta, Medical Center Computing, Stacey Hall
Univ of Virginia (804) 982-3718 wrk INTERNET: email@example.com
Box 512 Med Cntr (804) 924-5261 msg PRODIGY: KCMR45A
C'ville VA 22908 (804) 296-7209 fax IBM US: usuvarg8
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 17:10:42 -0600
Subject: ethical considerations
I have a question, one that may have already been covered. Several times over
the past few months I've wanted to take messages from this group and share them
with other people. I'm wondering: are there some ethical guidelines regarding
use of these messages outside the group?
To wit: we once had a wonderful and enlightening (IMHO) discussion of Secret
Mark. I have shared the messages from that discussion with several of my
fellow students at Baylor, but have done so hesitantly. Is it ethical for me
to take material from the list and concatenate and print it for the edification
of non-list members?
My thinking is: when a message is offered to the entire list, it becomes
property of each participant. Therefore, as long as one uses a message in
context and doesn't alter the meaning of a message (i.e., "rewriting" someone
else's post), participants should be free to print, concatenate, and share
material from B-Breek at their discretion.
Is this the basic consensus of the group?
Grace and peace,
Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:55:31 +1000
How do I unsubscribe from this group. I was subscribed as a prank...thankyou
From: Rod Decker <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Heb. 6
This and the ff. msg. were posted on b-greek recently. Thought some here
might have interest as well.
Hebrews 6:4, 'fOtizO'
Note re. long (3 pg.) post following:
This past August there was a fairly active thread regarding Hebrews 6. At
the time I argued that the reference to "falling away" should not be taken
in a soteric sense. I suggested that it was better understood in light of
the context of the original recipients: Jewish Christians facing the
Neronian persecutions in the mid-60s, the warning being directed toward
those who attempted to hide their faith and deny Christ to save their life.
I do not intend to renew that particular thread, but I do want to fulfill a
promise I made at the time.
In arguing that the participles in 6:4-6 must refer to those who were
genuine believers (i.e., "regenerate"), I proposed that fOtizO should be
taken as a soteriological reference to regeneration. In defense I appealed
to a paper presented by Steve Spencer at an ETS conference several years
ago. I was asked for details of and from the paper, but at the time did not
have time to retrieve the paper (it was the week before my doctoral comps
at the time). I'm late getting back to do so, but I'm finally far enough
into the semester to start catching up. So the following post is a brief
summary of that paper. Direct quotes are "marked"; other comments are my
summary of his argument.
Rodney J. Decker Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT 15800 Calvary Rd.
email@example.com Kansas City, Missouri 64147
From: Stephen Sansom <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 18:10:30 -0700
Subject: help with references re an unpopular topic on this list
This is multipart MIME message.
Content-Type:text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="NCZ0A16.TMP"
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="b-post01.txt"
From: Matthew Ashley Morgan <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 18:16:03 -0700
Subject: Re: David and Eric
>On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Eric Weiss wrote:
>> At the risk of adding fuel to a finally-dying fire, it seems to me that
>> who are cessationists with regard to the spiritual gifts are actually
>> "liberals" in this regard (though they usually consider themselves to be
>> theological conservatives), whereas those who believe things should continue
>> as they were in the beginning of the church are the true "conservatives" in
>> this area of theology. Maybe what one means by "liberal" and "conservative"
>> is in the eye of the belabeler. But perhaps my biases are showing ....
> With regard to the cessationist position on biblical
>interpretation, as that position is practiced today, I would suggest that
>it is rather an extreme form of dispensationalism than a form of
>liberalism. But to discuss this, it would be necessary to quite a ways
>toward the theological side of the spectrum, so I'll forbear.
>David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
>Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
>firstname.lastname@example.org Department of Education
>I think we can see here exactly what I said about the whole 'Q' issue.
Even on a Greek list, it is impossible to seperate GREEK INTERPRETATION from
PRESUPPOSITIONS! Thank you Eric and David for pointing this out, even if I
do disagree with both of you! <Sorry Dave for accidentally sending it to
your personal address>
The Master's College
Newhall CA 91322
End of b-greek-digest V1 #918
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