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b-greek-digest V1 #939




b-greek-digest            Sunday, 5 November 1995      Volume 01 : Number 939

In this issue:

        Re: Romans 4:17
        [none]
        [none]
        Re: "Perfect"?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 05:28:47 -0600
Subject: Re: Romans 4:17

At 10:53 PM 11/3/95, JClar100@aol.com wrote:
>Carl,
>
>In reply to some questions about Romans 4:17, you indicated that faith
>is "trust in God to keep his promises."  Please note Romans 4:13 which
>mentions the term H EPAGGELIA.  I have read that this word carries with
>it the idea of unconditional promise, i.e., the one making the promise
>does not demand that some requirement be fulfilled by the one to whom
>the promise is announced. Do you have any insight into such an
>understanding of this term? And, if this should be a somewhat characteristic
>use
>of the term in the contemporary historical period, does it appear to have
>this representative use in the chapter under discussion?
>
>I raise this question, because, if this is the case, it seems to me that
>it strengthens the correctives being attempted by many
>theologians today where legalistic tendencies have come
>close to robbing the faith of its transcendent qualities.  Therefore, we are
>led back to your powerful observation that the thrust of Paul's words
>is not about the nature of faith but the nature of God. (That statement has
>really been very helpful.)

I respond, perhaps too quickly, to say that I don't have the resources
ready to hand to answer that particular question. Offhand it strikes me as
loading the word EPAGGELIA with a burden of technical legal meaning which
it cannot bear unless the evidence of secular legal texts shows such a
meaning unambiguously. I don't have the lexical resources with me at home,
but I'll try to check as soon as I can.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/



------------------------------

From: yoshio@osak.ac.jp, agc03255@niftyserv.or.jp, agc03895@niftyserv.or.jp,  abd03395@niftyserv.or.jp, nak@sinnica.edu.tw, chu@aoone.net.au,  jtw@dialicks.co.nz, harry@nitec.ac.jp, leeni@osaka.ac.jp, gar@unee.edu,  seng@pll.my, tov04894@niftyserv.or.jp, rty02834@niftyserv.or.jp,  jui@pll.my, hre@pll.my, kari@osaka.ac.jp, are04255@niftyserv.or.jp,  yxr03785@niftyserv.or.jp, anb02395@niftyserv.or.jp, tfg@sinnica.edu.tw,  veb@aoone.net.au, yre@dialicks.co.nz, alan@nitec.ac.jp,  naga@osak.ac.jp, set@unee.edu 
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 01:58:09 +0900
Subject: [none]

                                                                         
 (Association of International Students, Executive Board of Directors,
 Japan Chapter)
Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles

- -----> NOTE:   Please first read my note which appears below the "Request
for more info Form."  Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request
for More Info" form completely and email it back to the company.  To make
it easier for you to reply, I have put their address in the "Reply-To"
field, which means you can just use your email software to reply to this
message in order to get that address to pop-up in your "To:" field. <-----


*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*
REQUEST FOR MORE INFO:  please return *only* this section only via
internet email to:

potential_new_members_FREE_catalogue_by-email@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int

Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged.  If you do not
have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you
until you do have one.  If you saw this message, then you should have one.  :)

Name:
Internet email address:
Smail home address:
City-State-Zip:
Country:
Work Tel. #:
Work Fax #:
Home Tel. #:
Home Fax #:
Name of USA mags you currently get on the newstand or in the store:
Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail:
Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when they call you:
Catalogue format desired from below two choices:
(1. 19-part email message;    2.  atttached file by email;  see below on
which format may be best for you).
How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of
the internet that you saw us mentioned in):   Yoshio Koseki's referral
110495-l
*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*


{{{Note-  19-part email can be received by anyone with any computer.
Attached file format may not be for you:  it is sent as an uncompressed
525K file formatted in Microsoft World on a Mac;  if you don't use
Microsoft Word on a Mac - you will have to know how to convert into a
usable text format.  They cannot help you with this.   If in doubt, they
suggest you go with the universally acceptable 19-part email message.  You
can always manually spend a few minutes pasting the parts into one
whole.}}}




Hi fellow 'netters,

My name is Yoshio Koseki and I recently started using a magazine
subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription
deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them.
They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country
on a subscription basis.   As for computer magazines from the USA, they
more of a selection than I ever knew even existed.  They have magazines for
most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles.

Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their
competitors and even the publishers themselves.  This is their price
guarantee.

Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half
of what the newstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines.  On some
titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newstands charge.  They
feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas.   In the USA, people
buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes
or hours.  They are so cheap in the USA!   Well, this company would like to
make it the same way for their overseas members.  They are also cheaper
than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the
publishers themselves!   This is their price guarantee.  Around one-half
their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new
members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language.

Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and
cut-out all the middlemen.

They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above.  It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.

Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student.
I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my
part-time software business!  Please fill out the below form and email to
them at:

potential_new_members_FREE_catalogue_by-email@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int

*NOTE:   to make it easier for you to reply, I have put their address in
the "Reply-To" field, which means you can just use your email software to
reply to this message in order to get that address to pop-up in your "To:"
field.*

They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are
less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other
times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet.
They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it.

They have been very helpful and helped me change my address from the USA to
Finland and then back again when I moved last month.  They are very
knowledgeable about addressing mags worldwide.

They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from
a special list of over 300 popular titles published in the USA.   They will
give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them
to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular
USA titles they sell.

They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have
clients in around 35 or 36 countries now.  Outside the USA there is a
charge for foreign postage and handling (on both paid and freebie subs)
that varies from magazine to magazine.  I have found their staff to be very
friendly and courteous.  They even helped me with an address change when I
moved from one country to another.

The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members"
(even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase
automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts
as a new member.   When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls
you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes
he has one of his assistants call.  He is kind of quirky sometimes - he
insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I
sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!),  but you can place future
orders (after your first order) via E-mail.

He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know
just as much as he does about this magazine stuff.  If you live overseas,
he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he
still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long
distance rates are cheaper then.

He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing
members and he does virtually no advertising.  When I got set-up, they had
a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they
could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately
when you call. )  I think they are able to get back to prospective new
members  the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased
their staff.  I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above
form to them, that is the way to get started!

They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above.  It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.

They then send you email  that outlines how his club works and the list of
free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what
he sells;  and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly,
no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and
answer all your questions.

Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.


Sincerely,

Yoshio Koseki


ps.  please forward a copy of this message to all your friends on the net
who you think might be interested in it!  It is a great deal!  If you join
and then they join after you, you will earn a free 1 yr. subscription for
each new person you get to join after you join!   If you exceed 25
referrals, they let you use them to give away as gifts, for Christmas,
Chanukah or any other occasion.  Please be kind enough to mention my name
when you join.   I will then get a free magazine for a year for referring
you.
Thank you.




------------------------------

From: yoshio@osak.ac.jp, agc03255@niftyserv.or.jp, agc03895@niftyserv.or.jp,  abd03395@niftyserv.or.jp, nak@sinnica.edu.tw, chu@aoone.net.au,  jtw@dialicks.co.nz, harry@nitec.ac.jp, leeni@osaka.ac.jp, gar@unee.edu,  seng@pll.my, tov04894@niftyserv.or.jp, rty02834@niftyserv.or.jp,  jui@pll.my, hre@pll.my, kari@osaka.ac.jp, are04255@niftyserv.or.jp,  yxr03785@niftyserv.or.jp, anb02395@niftyserv.or.jp, tfg@sinnica.edu.tw,  veb@aoone.net.au, yre@dialicks.co.nz, alan@nitec.ac.jp,  naga@osak.ac.jp, set@unee.edu 
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 01:14:14 +0900
Subject: [none]

                                                                         
 (Association of International Students, Executive Board of Directors,
 Japan Chapter)
Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles

- -----> NOTE:   Please first read my note which appears below the "Request
for more info Form."  Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request
for More Info" form completely and email it back to the company.  To make
it easier for you to reply, I have put their address in the "Reply-To"
field, which means you can just use your email software to reply to this
message in order to get that address to pop-up in your "To:" field. <-----


*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*
REQUEST FOR MORE INFO:  please return *only* this section only via
internet email to:

potential_new_members_FREE_catalogue_by-email@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int

Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged.  If you do not
have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you
until you do have one.  If you saw this message, then you should have one.  :)

Name:
Internet email address:
Smail home address:
City-State-Zip:
Country:
Work Tel. #:
Work Fax #:
Home Tel. #:
Home Fax #:
Name of USA mags you currently get on the newstand or in the store:
Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail:
Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when they call you:
Catalogue format desired from below two choices:
(1. 19-part email message;    2.  atttached file by email;  see below on
which format may be best for you).
How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of
the internet that you saw us mentioned in):   Yoshio Koseki's referral
110495-l
*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*


{{{Note-  19-part email can be received by anyone with any computer.
Attached file format may not be for you:  it is sent as an uncompressed
525K file formatted in Microsoft World on a Mac;  if you don't use
Microsoft Word on a Mac - you will have to know how to convert into a
usable text format.  They cannot help you with this.   If in doubt, they
suggest you go with the universally acceptable 19-part email message.  You
can always manually spend a few minutes pasting the parts into one
whole.}}}




Hi fellow 'netters,

My name is Yoshio Koseki and I recently started using a magazine
subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription
deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them.
They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country
on a subscription basis.   As for computer magazines from the USA, they
more of a selection than I ever knew even existed.  They have magazines for
most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles.

Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their
competitors and even the publishers themselves.  This is their price
guarantee.

Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half
of what the newstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines.  On some
titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newstands charge.  They
feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas.   In the USA, people
buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes
or hours.  They are so cheap in the USA!   Well, this company would like to
make it the same way for their overseas members.  They are also cheaper
than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the
publishers themselves!   This is their price guarantee.  Around one-half
their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new
members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language.

Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and
cut-out all the middlemen.

They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above.  It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.

Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student.
I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my
part-time software business!  Please fill out the below form and email to
them at:

potential_new_members_FREE_catalogue_by-email@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int

*NOTE:   to make it easier for you to reply, I have put their address in
the "Reply-To" field, which means you can just use your email software to
reply to this message in order to get that address to pop-up in your "To:"
field.*

They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are
less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other
times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet.
They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it.

They have been very helpful and helped me change my address from the USA to
Finland and then back again when I moved last month.  They are very
knowledgeable about addressing mags worldwide.

They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from
a special list of over 300 popular titles published in the USA.   They will
give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them
to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular
USA titles they sell.

They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have
clients in around 35 or 36 countries now.  Outside the USA there is a
charge for foreign postage and handling (on both paid and freebie subs)
that varies from magazine to magazine.  I have found their staff to be very
friendly and courteous.  They even helped me with an address change when I
moved from one country to another.

The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members"
(even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase
automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts
as a new member.   When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls
you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes
he has one of his assistants call.  He is kind of quirky sometimes - he
insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I
sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!),  but you can place future
orders (after your first order) via E-mail.

He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know
just as much as he does about this magazine stuff.  If you live overseas,
he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he
still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long
distance rates are cheaper then.

He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing
members and he does virtually no advertising.  When I got set-up, they had
a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they
could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately
when you call. )  I think they are able to get back to prospective new
members  the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased
their staff.  I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above
form to them, that is the way to get started!

They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and
juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above.  It has lists of
all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by
categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that
they sell.

They then send you email  that outlines how his club works and the list of
free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what
he sells;  and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly,
no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and
answer all your questions.

Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.


Sincerely,

Yoshio Koseki


ps.  please forward a copy of this message to all your friends on the net
who you think might be interested in it!  It is a great deal!  If you join
and then they join after you, you will earn a free 1 yr. subscription for
each new person you get to join after you join!   If you exceed 25
referrals, they let you use them to give away as gifts, for Christmas,
Chanukah or any other occasion.  Please be kind enough to mention my name
when you join.   I will then get a free magazine for a year for referring
you.
Thank you.




------------------------------

From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:07:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: "Perfect"?

"Carlton L. Winbery" <winberyc@linknet.net> wrote:

>Eric Vaughan wrote;
>>The purpose
>>of these gifts were to bring the Lord's message into
>>the world and confirm it.  When the message was completed,
>>that which was done in part (vs 9) ceased because we
>>no longer need miraculous revelation.
>>
>Perhaps a better understanding of TO TELEION, especially when mentioned as
>"coming" is eschatalogical.  All those things that are EK MEROUS "in part"
>are judged beside the ultimate, the parousia.  That which remains into the
>age is what really matters, faith, hope, and love.

	Paul is emphasizing the dichotomy between what is eternal and what
is for a certain time (1Cor. 13:8).  His EK MEROUS and TO TELEION further
develop the dichotomy to include the ideas of imperfection
(incompleteness) and perfection (completeness).  The question, in terms of
how we interpret TO TELEION, then, is, what epoch-making event does the
apostle Paul see as marking between temporal and eternal?  And
secondarily, how do the concepts of EK MEROUS and TO TELEION fit into
Paul's understanding and presentation of this temporal-eternal dichotomy. 

	Eric Vaughan's contention that TO TELEION refers to the completion
of the apostolic witness amounts to an extreme dispensational position. 
That charismatic and miraculous phenomena had the purpose of confirming
the apostolic witness does not logically or necessarily mean that the
charismatic and miraculous can have no other purpose in God's economy. 
"What purpose would miracles have today?" Eric asks.  Well, for example,
if your kid were in the hospital, sick, and the doctors say there's
nothing more they can do for him, a miracle would be pretty useful,
wouldn't it.  Is it legitimate to limit God saying He may work
miraculously in the apostolic age but not afterward?  To say that TO
TELEION refers to the completion of the apostolic witness is an
interpretation that agrees with the dispensational position that fixes the
end of miracles and charismata at the end of the apostolic age, but it
does not agree with a balanced exegesis of the context. 

	Carlton's comments above, as well as earlier posts by Carl and
Kenneth have correctly pointed out that the context favors understanding
TO TELEION as referring to the eschaton.  Another commentator expresses it
as follows: "'That which is perfect' cannot be a reference to the
completion of the canon of Scripture; otherwise we now, living in the age
of the completed canon, would see more clearly than Paul did (v. 9).  Even
the most self-satisfied and opinionated of theologians would hardly admit
that.  The coming of that which is perfect can only be a reference to the
Lord's second coming..." (S. Lewis Johnson, "The First Epistle to the
Corinthians," in _Wycliffe Bible Commentary_ [Chicago: Moody, 1990], p.
1252).  This comment is of special interest since its author also
expresses the opinion that today there is no scriptural exercise of the
gifts Paul mentions in this passage.  That is to say, from a practical
standpoint he appears to be a cessationist, but the correct practice of
exegesis applied to this passage does not allow understanding TO TELEION
as in reference to the completion of the canon of Scripture. 

	It is, of course, difficult to deal with this subject without
including consideration of the whole matter of the exercise of the
spiritual gifts and Paul's attitude regarding them, but since we recently
concluded a thread on that very matter, I'll not go back into that here. 


David L. Moore                             Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida                               of the  Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us           Department of Education



------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #939
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