b-greek-digest V1 #30

b-greek-digest            Tuesday, 5 December 1995      Volume 01 : Number 030

In this issue:

        Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28
        Re: Tense in non-indicative moods
        Re: Standardized Transliteration
        Re: Text of the Apostolic Fathers
        LSJM lexicon at a bargain price
        Junia endgueltig! 
        Re: errors 


From: Stephen Carlson <scc@ropes.reston.icl.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 16:43:10 EST
Subject: Re: Textual Problems in Mark 7:24, 28

Kenneth Litwak wrote:
>    Isn't it circular to argue that since Mark doesn't use nai, Mark didn't use
> nai?

Sure, it's fallacious as a deductive argument, but that's not the
argument being made.  More precisely, it is part of an inductive
argument which goes "since there is no *other* use of NAI in Mark, it
is somewhat unlikely that Mark would use it here."  Like all other
inductive arguments, it does not give us certainty, only probability.
But when it is combined with other probabilities, such as lectio brevior
and/or assimilation to Matthew, we can be assured of a reading (no NAI)
to a degree of certainty beyond that of any one argument.  I'm satisfied
with NA/UBS's reading for Mk7:28, considering the internal evidence and
that it has early papyrus support.

On the other hand, the case for omitting KAI SIDWNOS is considerably
weaker.  Not only is the external evidence less compelling (D W Theta),
but the shorter reading could well be explained by a scribe skipping
from one KAI to the next:  ... TYROYKAICIDWNOCKAIEICELQWN ...
					                ^^^       ^^^
Stephen Carlson
- -- 
Stephen Carlson     :  Poetry speaks of aspirations,  : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com  :  and songs chant the words.     : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330      :                 Shujing 2:35    : Reston, VA  22091   USA


From: Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:57:44 +0800
Subject: Re: Tense in non-indicative moods

Rod, it's not that I have problems with Porter challenging the status quo,
a practice I think is quite healthy, as one can gather from my postings.
Rather, I'm having trouble grasping what it is Porter is saying, and he seems
to be taking a reductionist postion that anyh tense will do and any mood
will do because there aren't any significant distinctions between them.
That may well be a flaw in my understanding of what he is saying, but
I'm fairly clear on the point about the non-indicative moods.  He definitely
seems to evacuate the imperative of nay distinction between the
present and aorist, as he does the subjunctive.  That's not just 
oging against the status quo, it makes virtiually every work on have on
my shelves, from Machen to BDF for grammars, to all the NIGNT or 
Cambridge Greek commentaries to even the Hermeneia or Anchor Bible comm.s
I have essentially grammatical doggeral as far as interpreting the 
Greek syntax goes.  Since Porter is telling me the4 old way of lookin at
things is incorrect, and I don't see him putting a idstinction inn its 
place that I can grasp well enough to apply, I've got nothing.
Any tense/mood can mean annyting.

Ken Litwak
Bezerkely, CA


From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:05:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Standardized Transliteration

It's always great to get in contact with a former student; so greetings,
David. You commented about transliteration.

>I find the lower case transliteration easier to read. I expect practice and
>familiarity make the difference in preference and I may learn to appreciate the
>upper case approach, but when I see longer quotations (more than a word or two)
>in the upper case transliteration I skip and hope I can figure out what the
>writer is talking about by reading the comments.

I agree with Carl on this one. I was most used to the transliteration
scheme adopted by the JBL and CBQ before the advent of computer generated
texts. So I was used to one transliteration scheme. In comparitive
linguistics I had to use the international code to represent oral sounds, a
very different schema.

I support Carl for two reasons. The scheme proposed, using captial Latin
alphabet letters makes breathing marks very clear. If you read the
positings for two weeks and decipher all the transliterations, the scheme
will be easy. I like it that it makes the Greek stand out, much like the
use of an uncial font for OT c itations did in the Westcott-Hort Greek
Testament that was the first I used. I complained as a college student that
it was hard to read (I had naturally been taught the cursive font used in
most texts.). After transcribing some unicial manuscripts as a grad
student, etc. I now read the uncials about as rapidly as the cursives. I
think the gains support Carl's view.

And when did you move south?

Cordially, Ed Krentz

Edgar Krentz, New Testament
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Tel.: 312-256-0752; (H) 312-947-8105


From: "Edgar M. Krentz" <emkrentz@mcs.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:05:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Text of the Apostolic Fathers

Yoou wrote:
>    I have two questions regarding the text of the AP.  Is
>Lightfoot's version considered adequate for scholarly use
>(I hsve to prepare chapters to sight-translate) or do I need to get the Loeb
>edition?  Also, can anyone explain to me why Lightfoot's version seems to use
>a font set that is so very different from what we see in printed Greek texts
>these days?  It's taking some getting used to to read c as a sigma.
Question 2: I checked my copy of Lightfoot's five volumes (1889-1890) to
see what font he used. Cambridge University Press used a font based on
Roman era Greek inscriptions for citations (OT or otherwise) both in
Lightfoot's Apostolic Fathers and in Westcott and Hort's GNT. The lunar
sigma, in both rounded and squared shapes, is found often in these
inscriptions. If you are interested, get the volume on the excavations at
_Gerasa_, ed. by Carl H. Kraeling (New Hven: American Schools of Oriental
Research, 1938) and read C. Bradford Welles' section on inscriptions (pp.
355-616). Welles gives tables that show the different alphabets used there.
The lunar sigma was also used frequently in texts published in the last 100
years. One good example is the major work entitled _Poimandres. Studien zur
griechisch-aegyptischen und fruehchristlichen Literature_ by R.
Reitzenstein (Leipzig: B. G. Teubner, 1904).

One mark of scholarship in Greek is the ability to read various Greek fonts
and hands. Take a look at the plates in Aland's work on the NT text and see
how many interesting alphabets there are. Even better, get E. Maunde
Thompson's great work _An Introduction to Greek and Latin Palaeography
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1912), or the much slighter _Short Manual of
Greek Palaeograpny by  B. A. van Groningen (Leiden: A. W. Siojthoff, 1955)
and work through his tables. Then reading different printed fonts or even
different modes of transliteration will be a breeze.  Keep at it and you
will no longer find it strange.

Question 1, re critical texts of the Apostolic Fathers. As far as preparing
for translation examinations is concerned either Lightfoot or the LCL
edition (K. Lake) will do. Equally useful is the editio Minor, _Patrum
Apostolicorum Opera_, ed. O. v. Gebhardt, A. v. Harnack, and T. Zahn
(Leipzig: J. C. Hinrichs, 1920). If you are looking for a critical edition
of the texts based on the MSS, neither is up to date.

The standard one volume critical edition is _Die apostolischen Vaeter_,
3rd. ed. after the Funk edition by Karl Bihlmeyer (with addenda by W.
Schneemelcher) Tuebingen: J. C. B. Mohr, 1970 (That is vol. 1 that covers
Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias, Quadratus, and the epistle of

_The Apostolic Fathers. Greek Texts and English Translations of their
Writings_, 2nd ed by J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, edited and revised
by Michael W. Holmes (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992) presents a text
with a very slight critical apparatus.

The best criticial edition at present, in my opinion, of Clement, Ignatius,
Polycarp, and  Quadratus is _Die apostolischen Vaeter griechisch und
deutsch_, edited by Joseph A. Fischer (Muenchen: Koesel, 1956; also
Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft).

The second volume is titled _Dicache (Apostellehre) Barnabasbrief Zweiter
Klemensbrief Schrift an Diognet_, ed. Klaus Wengst Schriften des
Urchristentums II. (Darmstadt: Wissenschkaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1984).

If you are using the text only to prepare for a Greek examination, any one
of them will do. If you mean to cite the text in an historical or
theological argument, then either the Bihlmeyer or Fischer-Wengst editions
are musts.

One danger of asking a question like this is that you may get more
information than you wanted; it's a topic that clearly interests me--and
should interest anyone who wants to say something in textual criticism.

Peace, Ed Krentz

Edgar Krentz, New Testament
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Tel.: 312-256-0752; (H) 312-947-8105


From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 18:40:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: LSJM lexicon at a bargain price

Stephen Carlson has asked about the Oxford offer of the LSJM lexicon at a 
bargain price, with a new Supplement by Glare as added attraction.  I've sent 
this out before, but here it is again for those who missed.

Edward Hobbs

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           ---Classical Greek---

     The (financially) bad news is that really there is no choice for 
Classical Greek except the *only* current one: "New (9th) Edition" of

          _A Greek-English Lexicon_ compiled by Henry George Liddell
     and Robert Scott.  Revised and augmented throughout by Sir Henry
     Stuart Jones, with the assistance of Roderick McKenzie and with
     the co-operation of many scholars.  With a supplement, 1968,
     edited by E. A. Barber.  Oxford, at the Clarendon Press, 1968.
          [List price, $135]

     Oxford has announced a partially-new version of the 9th Edition with a
completely revised supplement (2378 total pp.)  The revised supplement by
Glare will also be available separately (288 pp.)  The new printing was
promised for June 1995; as of October 1995, it was re-scheduled for
publication in March 1996.  The good news is that the price has been
dropped $10, to $125; even better news is that they have reinstated the
pre-publication offer-- order before January 31, 1996, and it will cost
only $100!  (All prices plus $3.50 shipping.)

	Phone: 1-800-451-7556
		You need to tell them that you saw the offer in their Classical 
Studies catalog, which you don't happen to have with you at the moment (this is 
really a limited offer to faculty who get that catalog, but they won't 
challenge you if you sound reasonably official (or officious maybe).

  The new version is:

          _A Greek-English Lexicon: Ninth Edition with Revised
     Supplement_ compiled by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott. 
     Revised and augmented throughout by Sir Henry Stuart Jones, with
     the assistance of Roderick McKenzie and with the co-operation of
     many scholars.  Supplement edited by P. G. W. Glare.  Oxford, at
     the Clarendon Press, 1996.
          [List price, $125]       [Supplement separately, $65]


From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:18:30 -0600
Subject: Junia endgueltig! 

I have just been on the phone with Fred Danker, who tells me he's been very
busy with proofs of the new BAGD (I asked him WHEN? He wasn't making any
promises, and of course itdoesn't all depend on him, but he thought it
might get out by the end of 1996!)

I asked him specifically our question about whether the entry on
Junia/Junias had been changed; he said, "Oh, yes, that's been fixed; it
turns out that the evidence is pretty overwhelming in favor of IOUNIA, the
feminine form, in Rom 16:7. I did not tell him until after he had told me
this that Edward Hobbs had threatened never to drink scotch with him if
this hadn't been corrected, to which he replied that Edward had better be
prepared to buy and to be careful about his brands!

Although I have been aware that Fred is a St. Louisan since his days at
Concordia and later at Seminex (and in fact, took a Ph.D. in Classics at
Washington U. well before I arrived here), my only run-in with him
previously had been during my chairmanship of our department when he was
trying to get our library to make a xerox copy of a missing link volume of
inscriptions from Pergamum. While I was certainly well aware of how much
this Hellenistic lexicography depends upon the new papyri coming out of the
Egyptian sands and slowly being cataloged, dated, and decoded, I really
hadn't been aware of the importance of the epigraphic data for establishing
just such matters as how common a name like IOUNIA or a putative masculine
form like IOUNIAS might be. While I'm sure that the list-people who are
deeply involved in NT textual criticism are well aware of how dependent the
whole field of NT scholarship is upon patient and arduous labors of
lexicographers, papyrologists, and epigraphers. And of course there are
errors in their end-products, but we owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/


From: Rod Decker <rdecker@inf.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:53:56 -0600
Subject: Re: errors 

>     Every language community has syntactic constructions which are avoided
>or frowned upon as offensive...If Mark's style is so bad, is it credible that
>he made no grammatical errors, infelicities that would have shown his
>or careless lapses?

I think it is an overstatement to view Mark's style as "so bad" (comparing
it with substandard English) as to contain "ignorance or careless lapses."
There is certainly a wide range of style in the NT. Hebrews is prob. on the
"upper end" and Mark and John on the "lower end." Yet all the NT writers
communicate in relatively clear, idiomatic Greek--not at all like some of
the papyri. The Greek of the NT has been described as conversational Greek
(in contrast to literary and vernacular Greek). I doubt very many on this
list are qualified to judge much beyond that. What may appear to be poor
Greek may as often as not be the judge's problem! (I note that my students
find all sorts of "problems" with what they read--but those problems seem
to disappear as their proficiency increases.)

(Sorry to be tardy in responding; I've been away for several days.)


Rodney J. Decker                      Calvary Theological Seminary
Asst. Prof./NT                                   15800 Calvary Rd.
rdecker@inf.net                        Kansas City, Missouri 64147


End of b-greek-digest V1 #30


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