b-greek-digest V1 #91

b-greek-digest           Saturday, 27 January 1996     Volume 01 : Number 091

In this issue:

        Re: Using English ponies 
        Re: Deut 6
        Re: grammar
        Luke 1:78--"tender mercy/lovingkindness" 
        Re: Luke 1:78--"tender mercy/lovingkindness"
        (no subject)


From: KevLAnder@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:43:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Using English ponies 

In a message dated 96-01-25 13:31:41 EST, Edgar Krenz wrote:

>uses Greek to discover what the translations ought to mean, whether in
>Plato or the NT. You use them to see how others have tried to solve
>difficulties, then go back to the philological tools (lexicon, grammar,
>concordance, parallel passages) to evaluate their solutions and in the
>process deepen your own understanding of the text.
>Translations can be an aid, especially if you use many of them. But the
>moment you use one to decide if your own work is correct, you have reversed
>the procedure you should follow.

Well put! I would add that the exhiliration of knowing how to work with Greek
is when you do discover that a particular translation is in some passage (or
even clause!) inferior to the translation that you yourself have come up

Kevin L. Anderson
Concord, CA


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:56:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Deut 6

On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Kenneth Litwak wrote:

>    I have a question or two from Dt. in the LXX.  6:11 says that the Israelites 
> will get things they did not work for.  The verbs for them not working forthem 
> are generally Aorist, but the passage has a forward perspective "You didn't
> dig the cistern, but you get to have it".  This is followed by 
> KAI FAGWN KAI EMPLHSQEIS.  These are Aorist participles, but they refer, I think,
> to a future event, i.e., when you get the houses and vineyards and cisterns
> and so forth, you will eat and be filled full.  Howevver, that's not how I
> learned to trasnlate participles.  It would be more like "after having both eaten
> and having been filled full".  Is it common to understand Aorist participles as
> future in reference?

	The key to the interpretation of these aorist participles is that 
the sentence does not end at the end of the verse.  Rather, the thought 
continues in v. 12; so the idea is "When you have eaten and become full 
(with these things) take care that you don't forget the Lord your God who 
brought you out of the land of Egypt, from a house of slavery."

	Hebrew verbs, as I'm sure you know, are not limited to expressing
simple past, present, or future action but often - as is the case with these
participles you mention - express things like action previous to a point of
future reference.  If I understand the Hebrew correctly here, 'AKALTA and 
SABA`TA are kal preterites that should be understood as expressing past 
action from a point of future reference.

David L. Moore                             Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida                               of the  Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us           Department of Education


From: David Moore <dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:19:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: grammar

On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Carlton Winbery wrote:

> Jim Love wrote;
> >Speaking of word origins (I like logical lapses) I have a question
> >about "orthotomeo" does it have any origin in wood working?  I
> >remember hearing that the older craftsmen thought that saws were for
> >poor cutters and if you knew what you were doing you could cut right
> >with an axe. (18th and 19th century)  It got me wondering.
> >
> The vulgate reading seems to indicate that they understood this verb
> without the idea of cutting, RECTE TRACTANTEM "rightly handling . . ."  I
> read somewhere that some of the church fathers associated the verb
> ORTHOTOMEO with the craft of stonemasons, smoothing the stones so they fit.
> Probably here the fathers are right that the idea of cutting has faded
> into history.
> charis,
	One suggestion which seems to the point here is a comment by
Moulton in his volume on _Accidence and Word Formation_.  He suggests that
the first element of ORQOTOMOUNTA is that which holds sway in the word's
translation.  He likens it to KAINOTOMEIN = "innovate" (Mouton's Grammar,
II: 274). 

David L. Moore                             Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida                               of the  Assemblies of God
dvdmoore@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us           Department of Education


From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" <mauros@iol.ie>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:02:49 +0000
Subject: Luke 1:78--"tender mercy/lovingkindness" 

- -Edward Hobbs wrote:

>> Perhaps this has been confused by someone with the fact that Tyndale created 
the wonderful translation (in the OT) of the Hebrew HESED (CHESED) by 
"lovingkindness."  That was a masterstroke indeed! <<

The confusion was mine, not Carl Conrad's, I hasten to admit.

My thanks for the speedy correction -- yet again, faulty recall of a
conversation of some years ago, plus not looking up Tyndale's translation (
not easily come by in my part of the world ! )

Yes, "lovingkindness" as _one_ of the possible translations of CHESED I have
long known, so it would seem that that conversation I recalled was switching
from NT to OT, and I went down the wrong track<g>.

As against the RSV of Lk 1:78:
through the tender mercy of our God, 
    when the day shall dawn upon us from on high 

I prefer the Grail:

the loving-kindness of the heart of our God
who visits us like the dawn from on high

and I prefer either to the ICET  version:

In the tender compassion of our God
the dawn from on high shall break upon us



Maurice A. O'Sullivan  [ Bray, Ireland ]

[using Eudora Pro  v  2.1.2 ]


From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:41:51 -0600
Subject: Eudora/apologies 

My apologies to the List for not deleting the cc on my note to Maurice, but
at least some listmembers might find the information I was sending him

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/


From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:21:08 -0600
Subject: Re: Luke 1:78--"tender mercy/lovingkindness"

> [using Eudora Pro  v  2.1.2 ]

Maurice: I don't know whether you're using Mac or Windows version, but a
new Mac version 2.1.4 of Eudora Pro just became available this morning at


and if you're using Windows, an update to version 2.2 is available at


Just thought you'd like to know.

Cheers, cwc


From: Marc McCune <marc.mccune@external.rrd.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 19:08:48 -0500
Subject: (no subject)

subscribe B-GREEK Marc McCune


End of b-greek-digest V1 #91


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