b-greek-digest V1 #104

b-greek-digest            Tuesday, 6 February 1996      Volume 01 : Number 104

In this issue:

        1 John 5:7  In or out????
        Re: 1 Pet. 2:5
        Re: Nothing to do with B-Greek
        Re: New member
        FYI: YCSFORUM List Web Site
        Re: Message for all!
        Wisdom of Solomon and Hebrews
        Re: 1 John 5:7  In or out????
        1 Jn. 5:7-8
        Greek Hangman for Windows 
        Re: Greek Vocab 


From: rachel@hntp2.hinet.net
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 14:10:22
Subject: 1 John 5:7  In or out????

Since this is my first post I sure clear up something
That is my daughter's name in the email address below
It is a long story how it got there, 
and an equally long story why I do not change it.......
So my name is Jim
I graduated from Western Evangelical Seminary in Portland, Ore.

>From what I just read in Chr. Today
It is one of the fastest growing in Oregon I think or else in the
States anyway <big grin>

I told the guys over in Theology that I would ask you over here in
B-Greek Actually I have been "lurking" for some time and will
continue to do so since my Greek is so rusty.... <sob sob>

Also related to the 1 John 5:7 issue is what do you guys fall on the 
TR or Majority Text debate fall?

Thanks for any response   
esp. from Conrad (hint hint   ;)

- -- Windoze 95 is just another pretty face but can it do anything?
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Way over here and under Bejing's missile threat... :(    Taiwan Team
OS/2  ----    ;)
- -----------------------------------------------------------


From: Constantine Stathopoulos <cstath@onned.gr>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 10:39:27 +0200
Subject: Re: 1 Pet. 2:5

>PNEUMATIKO\S  This is translated in the NIV as "you also, like living
>stones, are being built into a spiritual house",  NRSV has "like living
>stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house".  Similar
>translations are found in the RSV, KJV, and JB.  Any discussion of this
>construction in several commentaries centers on the verb, passive vs.
>imperative sense.


This question has already been answered by the authorities in this mailing
list, but I hope that my message still contains some useful information.

OI)=KOS is a predicate nominative here. OI)KODOMW= belongs to a list of
verbs that in Greek are called verbs of progress. Syntactically OI)=KOS is
called an anticipatory predicate, because it denotes the result of the
action taken by the verb (e.g. O( OI)=KOS OI)KODOMEI=TAI ME/GAS, TO/ TOU=
FILI/PPOU O)/NOMA ME/GA HY)/JHTO). However, the anticipatory predicate
usually denotes an attribute that the subject will acquire at the end of the
action, thus being an adjective as in the above examples. The usual think to
say in Pet. 2:5 would be KAI\ AU)TOI\ W(S LI/QOI ZW=NTES OI)KODOMEI=SQE EI)S
OI)=KON PNEUMATIKO\N, as you have already noted. I believe that such an
example can be found somewhere in the Epistle to Ephesians.


Constantine Stathopoulos,
Athens, Greece.


From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:06:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Nothing to do with B-Greek

You wrote: 
>Sorry about this post - it's got nothing to do with B-Greek.
>On another list, I was complaining of "man-hating" and I could find no 
>word. Another list member suggested "misandry."
>Is there a proper term?
>What about "misandry"?

What about misanthropy?
from misanthrope (n): one who hates or distrusts his fellow man (Funk & 
(opposite of philanthropy: a for real NT "b-greek" term.)



From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 23:09:07 -0800
Subject: Re: New member

You wrote: 
>Hi!  I've just gotten into B-GREEK, and have enjoyed the
>conversation very much - esp. Carl Conrad's thoughts on learning
>Introduction: I teach Greek and exegesis, both here and in
>Romania part-time.  My wife and I run a small publishing company,
>called Stylus Publishing, that handles printed language tools. 
>Among other things we handle my revision of Ben Chapman's Greek
>NT Insert, also available on Logos CD.
Welcome! We look forward to your input as well!
By the way, who are you and where is "here"?
Perhaps you have noticed that many of the scholars here include a 
signature blurb with their credentials and business location.

I, on the other hand, have neither so I sign myself...

Your friend in Christ,
Ellen Adams
(Nosey housewife; Colorado)


From: Shaughn Daniel <shaughn.daniel@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:10:47 +0100
Subject: FYI: YCSFORUM List Web Site

YCSFORUM PRESS RELEASE                                    MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5


- -- It's not much, but I'm proud to announce that it's one small step for
our list. People can find our list now ON the web and subscribe to it FROM
the web, set subscription options, query the listserver, and confirm their
subscription at the following web site URL:


BTW, this is a freebie site for lists and takes the hassle out of e-mail
subscribing and updating subscription options for subscribers (e.g., can
you remember fondly the "I'M GOING ON VACATION!!!!" messages? =). If you
are a listowner, then check into netspace's lwgateway homepage for putting
up a page for your list(s). If you are just a list subscriber, then check
it out as well. They've done an amazing job at automating the process of
finding and getting on lists that you want by providing a search feature
for the sites they have pages for. The home page is:

Shaughn Daniel
YCSForum Listowner
Tuebingen, Germany


From: Duane Nelson <dnelson@freeway.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:16:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Message for all!

Hi, all.

I would imagine that each of us received this message via b-greek.  I signed 
up for this list to keep my perspectives fresh with my greek studies.  This 
doesn't help my greek at all.  Is there a reason a message like this was 
sent to my "greek studies" box?

Please note that along with the message itself being very offensive, it is 
an abuse of a scholarly enlightening list.  P61A2@aol.com, who sent this 
message, should recheck his priorities before abusing another list.

End of sermon.

Duane Nelson
A Wanna-be Scholar

>When an embryo is aborted 8 to 9 weeks into a pregnancy, the child has not
>yet developed a functioning nervous system or brain so the child has no
>'experiences' or 'memory'. The essence of life exists in the unique genetic
>Some cells in an embryo have 'decided' to become certain organs and others
>have not 'decided'. This is illustrated best by the fact that babies develop
>from a single 'undecided' cell. It is scientifically plausible that if the
>cells that have 'decided' to become certain organs are removed, the remaining
>'undecided' cells can be nurtured and start the embryo growing again
>(embryogenesis) replacing the cells that were removed.
>Cryogenic Solutions, Inc. is a Houston based company that offers the service
>of cryopreserving (freezing) embryo from terminated pregnancies. They are
>sure the unique genetic identity of the embryo's life is preserved.
>Cryogenic Solutions, Inc. believes that they and their consultant researchers
>can perfect techniques to nurture the 'undecided' cells and start the embryo
>growing again. They also believe they can use some of the widely accepted
>techniques for In Vitro Fertilization to implant the developing embryo into
>the original, surrogate, or adoptive mother.
>The press has started calling Cryogenic Solutions' process 'pregnancy
>suspension'. The company's total fee for cryopreservation, 10 years of
>storage, record keeping, and research is $356.00 per embryo!
>You should know. Cryogenic Solutions offers the service only to women who
>have ABSOLUTELY decided to abort their pregnancy! The company's mission is a
>last ditch effort to save the life that would otherwise be lost forever. I
>think its about time somebody tried.
>Cryogenic Solutions is a public company traded on the NASDAQ bulletin board
>and their symbol is CYGS. The company expects to earn $2.00 per share this
>year and I think the stock should be worth alot more than its current price
>of $7.50 per share, I've been told $30.00 per share is not unreasonable.
>If you have any questions you can e-mail me at the address on the header or
>Cryogenic Solutions, Inc. at CYGS@AOL.COM. You can also call the company at
>Finally, I am not involved with the company in any official capacity. I just
>thought that everyone should know about their efforts to save babies and an
>excellent moral investment.
>Thank you for your time.


Subject: [none]


From: kenneth@sybase.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:10:36 +0800
Subject: Wisdom of Solomon and Hebrews

     Now that I have a moment to breathe, I want to respond to Edgar Krentz's
interesting post on the relation of WisSol to the opening of Hebrews.
Since I was just reviewing both of these last wekk, they are pretty fresh in
mind.  I'm afraid I find the thesis that Wisdom of Solomon or similar
ideas is taken up in Heb 1:1-4 somewhat lacking in evidence.  Let's
look at some of the differences (since Edgar Krentz has presented what he thinks 
are the similarities), having just been exhorted by my doctoral advisor to
stop quoting the opinions of others and do the grunt work in the text myself.
     Wisdom of Solomon 7 (hereafter WS) describes Wisdom as giving the writer 
insight into things visible and hidden and insight into the rules by which
the seasons change (in fact he uses at least three different phrases to describe
these changes -- must have been paid by the word).  He is given insight into
the inner workings of all matter.  He/she then describes wisdom in several,
very rare (naturally) adjectives:  clear, distinct, fine, bright, 
unharmed/unharming, and so forth.  The author also values Wisdom above power and

    Hebrews, on the other hand, focuses on 1) God's visible acts in the past;
and 2) how the Son relfects God's nature.  While wisdom shows the author of
WS 7 the inner workings of things, the author of Hebrews (Prisicilla, for the sake
of argument) argues that the Son demonstrates God's hupostasis.  The Son relfects
the glory of God.  Both do seem to have the idea of unchangeableness in them, but
WS 7 never seems to equate God with Wisdom, while Hebrews 1:1-4 does equate 
the Son with God in many ways.

   Furthermore, as just hinted at, the vocabulary used in WS 7 and Hb 1:1-4 
shares little in common explicitly.  While the owrds might change, I would expect
the thoghts to be the same, if in fact one is borrowing from the other or 
influenced by the same tradition.  In fact, Wisdom,which uses words, could be
contrasted with the Son, who supersedes the acts and words of the propehets
in Heb 1:1-4.

    Finally, I think it is yet to be proven that Priscilla knew of WS.  I could
fairly readily argue, I think, that the Jewish view of wisdom as somehow
personal, stems from Proverbs 8, and WS 7, is a low-calibre imitation of that.
I await respones.

Ken Litwak
Bezerkley, CA          


From: JohnHorst@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:05:55 -0500
Subject: Unsubscribe 

Unsubscribe JohnHorst@aol.com


From: Greekroy@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:18:41 -0500

   Now that I am learning Greek, I am learning to love the language.  I am
preparing to attend a graduate program in New Testament, concentrating on
Greek.  Until I subscribed to B-GREEK I had no idea how many programs that
there must be out there.
   I am applying to the Claremont Graduate Scool, because I could
realistically complete my PhD with in 4 to 5 years.  If there are other
graduate programs that a BA in Math/Spanish might be able to complete in 5
years - I am interested.
   I am also interested in summer language programs.  My Greek is rudimentary
and my Hebrew is non-existant (so is my Coptic, Latin, German, etc.).
   My goal is to teach the Greek NT.


From: Carlton Winbery <winberyc@popalex1.linknet.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:48:19 +0400
Subject: Re: 1 John 5:7  In or out????

rachel@hntp2.hinet.net wrote;

>> Also related to the 1 John 5:7 issue is what do you guys fall on the
>> TR or Majority Text debate fall?
>> Thanks for any response    esp. from Conrad (hint hint   ;)

Carl Conrad wrote;

>Welcome, Jim. We'll take your word about Western Evangelical.
>As for your question, I make no claims to expertise at textual criticism,
>but as to the question in your subject heading, I think the evidence is
>overwhelming that the TR additions in 1 John 5:7-8 are spurious, unattested
>in any MS earlier than the 4th century. Metzger has a long note in his
>_Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament_ and the commentaries deal
>thoroughly with it. As for the second question, I don't think it's quite an
>either/or matter. but I'm sure the adepts will speak up and I suspect
>you'll find few defenders of the TR amongst us.

That's certainly true.  I would add to your statement about the Comma
Johanneum that it is not found in any Greek ms before the tenth century
(221 and then listed as a variant reading).  The next earliest Greek ms is
88, twelth cent. (also listed as a variant reading).  the first ms to
include in the text itself and not as a marginal reading is forteenth cent.

Carlton L. Winbery
Prof. Religion
LA College, Pineville, La


From: "H. Alan Brehm" <102733.3234@compuserve.com>
Date: 05 Feb 96 19:42:12 EST
Subject: 1 Jn. 5:7-8

Since I just recently taught an elective on the Johannine Letters at
Southwestern and revised my notes, I thought I would copy and paste them here
for the list.

The King James Version of 1 Jn. 5:7-8 reads, "Because there are three that
testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are
one.  And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit and the water and
the blood, and these three are one."   This is one of the best-known problems of
textual criticism, the process of comparing and evaluating all available
evidence regarding the text New Testament (Greek manuscripts; versions in other
ancient languages; citations by Church Fathers) in order to determine the
original text in so far as it is possible for us.

The "threefold witness in heaven" apparently originated from the impulse to
interpret the "threefold witness" of Spirit, water, and blood allegorically as a
reference to the Trinity (beginning in the Third Century with Tertullian,
Cyprian, and Augustine).  The "Johannine Comma" appears first in the writings of
Priscillian (died ca.  A. D. 385), and from there was incorporated into late
manuscripts of the Old Latin version and the Vulgate.  Erasmus rejected it
because he did not find it in his Greek manuscripts, and swore that he would
include it if he found one.  Subsequently one was "produced", and other Greek
mss. dated in the 15th and 16th centuries contain the text, but all of them
display the influence of the Vulgate (it appears first in OL mss. around A. D.
600; before A. D. 1500 it is absent from all copies of Syriac, Coptic, Armenian,
Ethiopic, Arabic, and Slavonic versions!).  It is the earliest Greek manuscript
to contain what had become a traditional rendition in the Vulgate.  Through the
reprinting of Erasmus' Greek NT (later called the Textus Receptus because it was
reprinted as the "standard" edition) on the one hand and the influence of the
Vulgate (the official Bible of the RCC) on the other, the verse became a part of
the textual tradition of the English Bible.  The vast majority of textual
critics today (spanning the entire theological spectrum from "conservative" to
"liberal") agree that this text presents no serious claim to belong to the
original text of 1 John (cf. Metzger, Textual Commentary, ad loc.; R. E. Brown,
Epistles of John, 775-87).

H. Alan Brehm
Ass't. Prof. of NT
Southwestern Bapt. Theol. Sem.
P. O. Box 22000
Fort Worth, TX 76122
817-923-1921 ext. 6800
FAX 817-922-9005


From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 20:15 PST
Subject: Greek Hangman for Windows 

For those of you who got my Greek Hangman game at SBL and were wanting the
Windows version ....

SuperCard is a little late on getting their runtime done for Windows. It
should be done in three months and I will post a message that it is
available at my web site.

Bill Mounce
Teknia Software, Inc.

Internet: billm@teknia.com (preferred)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (please, only if necessary)

"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."


From: Bill Mounce <billm@teknia.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 20:15 PST
Subject: Re: Greek Vocab 

You can check out my FlashWorks (Macintosh, Windows, and DOS) at my Web site at


They don't print out any flash cards. That is something I have wanted to do
but I don't have  the time until this last book is done.

By the way, I just finished my Graded Reader. The editors will have one
last go-over and then to the printers. Should be available by early April.

Bill Mounce
Teknia Software, Inc.

Internet: billm@teknia.com (preferred)
AOL: Mounce
CIS: 71540,2140 (please, only if necessary)

"It may be Greek to you, but it is life to me."


End of b-greek-digest V1 #104


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