SBL session on the Greek Perfect

MAubrey
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by MAubrey » November 28th, 2013, 1:56 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
MAubrey wrote:
RandallButh wrote:{+perfective, followed with a +imperfective}
This was my preferred view until I began looking at grammatical contrasts between present middles and perfect middles. It sounds reasonable when contrasting present and perfect actives. It's a harder point to make with middles. Only the present middles will be imperfective. The perfects will be purely existential--no internal temporal constituency. Consider, for example: γέγραπται, 'it is written,' vs. γράφεται, 'it is being written.'
I realize it is Thanksgiving in the US, but could you expand / expound on this when you get the time? This is very condensed and I'm not sure I'm understanding it.
Yeah, it isn't a really good time...

I might have a moment when I get to the weekend.

I'd also like to see what Randall's going to write, too, since I've found that he, you, and myself tend to have generally similar views expressed in quite different ways. In this case, I have a feeling part of the issue here is that I'm really not at all a fan of distinctive features. They have a kind of practical usefulness, but I think that they're theoretically problematic--they're a mathematical metaphor that breaks down rather quickly. So I think I want to wait until Randall himself has articulated a less condensed position.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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RandallButh
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by RandallButh » November 28th, 2013, 9:14 pm

Ok, I think that I have successfully uploaded a blog at http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com. 'Getting the right handles on the Greek perfect.' It's a little on the long side (1500 words?). But at least it's up while I go through the "jetlag worm hole" into another world.

Have a nice Thanksgiving, even those who celebrated earlier like Canada and Liberia.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 29th, 2013, 4:03 am

RandallButh wrote:Ok, I think that I have successfully uploaded a blog at http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com. 'Getting the right handles on the Greek perfect.'
The blog post may be found more specifically here: http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/h ... k-perfect/
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 29th, 2013, 6:33 pm

Question: have Fanning, Porter, or Campbell significantly changed their views on the Greek perfect in any way, or were they pretty much reiterating their classic views at the SBL session?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Carlson
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 29th, 2013, 6:49 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:Question: have Fanning, Porter, or Campbell significantly changed their views on the Greek perfect in any way, or were they pretty much reiterating their classic views at the SBL session?
As far as I can tell, it was basically the same as what they said before. What was new were the updated criticisms of the other positions.
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by RandallButh » November 30th, 2013, 2:10 pm

Yes, pretty much the same, though Fanning raised a point of falsifiablity on Campbell's position, and the morphological notes in my blog explain the reasonability of a two parameter approach to the perfect, since the morphology has generated two separate markers.
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Paul-Nitz
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by Paul-Nitz » January 15th, 2015, 9:21 am

MAubrey wrote:This was my preferred view until I began looking at grammatical contrasts between present middles and perfect middles. It sounds reasonable when contrasting present and perfect actives. It's a harder point to make with middles. Only the present middles will be imperfective. The perfects will be purely existential--no internal temporal constituency. Consider, for example: γέγραπται, 'it is written,' vs. γράφεται, 'it is being written.'
I wonder if MAubrey's opinion has changed after Randall Buth's article on the Perfect .
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Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi

MAubrey
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by MAubrey » January 16th, 2015, 8:35 am

Paul-Nitz wrote:
MAubrey wrote:This was my preferred view until I began looking at grammatical contrasts between present middles and perfect middles. It sounds reasonable when contrasting present and perfect actives. It's a harder point to make with middles. Only the present middles will be imperfective. The perfects will be purely existential--no internal temporal constituency. Consider, for example: γέγραπται, 'it is written,' vs. γράφεται, 'it is being written.'
I wonder if MAubrey's opinion has changed after Randall Buth's article on the Perfect .
Nope.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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MAubrey
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by MAubrey » January 16th, 2015, 8:41 am

More specifically, Paul, the issue here is more about descriptive metalanguage than it is about the perfect. Randall & I had a couple good talks about the perfect in November 2014 and we are, as far as I can see, in solid agreement on the actual semantics...even if he's using different terminology.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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MAubrey
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Re: SBL session on the Greek Perfect

Post by MAubrey » January 17th, 2015, 12:28 am

As a follow up to the follow up...you can read all about my thoughts about the semantics of the perfect in my thesis on Academia.edu.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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