An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Richard Budelberger
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An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by Richard Budelberger »

Bonjour,

Can somebody help me with Mk 3, 13-19 as in W 032 (Codex Washingtonianus) and its περιάγοντας which troubles me since… 2006 ! ?…
13 Καὶ ἀναβὰς εἰς τὸ ὄρος καὶ προσεκαλέσατο οὓς ἤθελεν, καὶ ἀπῆλθον πρὸς αὐτόν.
14 Καὶ ἐποίησεν δώδεκα μαθητὰς ἵνα ὦσιν μετ' αὐτοῦ οὓς καὶ ἀποστόλους ὠνόμασεν, ἵνα ἀποστέλλῃ αὐτοὺς κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,
15 καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν θεραπεύειν τὰς νόσους καὶ ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια καὶ περιάγοντας κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,
16 καὶ ἐπέθηκεν ὄνομα Σίμωνι Πέτρον,
17 κοινῶς δὲ αὐτοὺς ἐκάλεσεν Βοανανηργε, ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς·
18 ἦσαν δὲ οὗτοι Σίμων καὶ Ἀνδρέας, Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης, Φίλιππος καὶ Βαρθολομαῖος, καὶ Μαθθαῖος, καὶ Θωμᾶς, καὶ Ἰάκωβος ὁ τοῦ Ἁλφαίου, καὶ Σίμων ὁ Καναναῖος
19 καὶ Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριώτης ὁ καὶ παραδοὺς αὐτόν.
Has somebody the Vetus Latina versions of this text (a c e) ?


Merci.
Hefin J. Jones
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by Hefin J. Jones »

At

http://epapers.bham.ac.uk/1664/1/Bezae%2DLatin.xml

You can find a transcription of the entire latin text of Codex Bezae. Don't know if that is of any help? The relevant section from there is (sorry line numbers and verse numbers got a bit jumbled):

1813et ascendit in montem · et uocauit ad se
quos uoluit ipse · et uenerunt ad eum
14et fecit ut essent · xii · cum ipso
21et ut mitteret illos praedicare
euangelium · 15et dedit illis potestatem
curandi ualetudinems
24et eiciendi daemonia
16et inposuit simoni nomen petrus
17et iacobum zebedaei
27et iohannen fratrem iacobi
et inposuit eis nomina boanges
quod est filius tonitrui · 18et andream
30et filippum · et barthilomeum et mattheum
et thomam et iacobum alfei
et lebbeum et simonem cananeum
3319et iudas scarioth
Hefin Jones

instructor in New Testament - Koinonia Theological Seminary, Davao
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by cwconrad »

Richard Budelberger wrote:Bonjour,

Can somebody help me with Mk 3, 13-19 as in W 032 (Codex Washingtonianus) and its περιάγοντας which troubles me since… 2006 ! ?…
13 Καὶ ἀναβὰς εἰς τὸ ὄρος καὶ προσεκαλέσατο οὓς ἤθελεν, καὶ ἀπῆλθον πρὸς αὐτόν.
14 Καὶ ἐποίησεν δώδεκα μαθητὰς ἵνα ὦσιν μετ' αὐτοῦ οὓς καὶ ἀποστόλους ὠνόμασεν, ἵνα ἀποστέλλῃ αὐτοὺς κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,
15 καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν θεραπεύειν τὰς νόσους καὶ ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια καὶ περιάγοντας κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,
16 καὶ ἐπέθηκεν ὄνομα Σίμωνι Πέτρον,
17 κοινῶς δὲ αὐτοὺς ἐκάλεσεν Βοανανηργε, ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς·
18 ἦσαν δὲ οὗτοι Σίμων καὶ Ἀνδρέας, Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης, Φίλιππος καὶ Βαρθολομαῖος, καὶ Μαθθαῖος, καὶ Θωμᾶς, καὶ Ἰάκωβος ὁ τοῦ Ἁλφαίου, καὶ Σίμων ὁ Καναναῖος
19 καὶ Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριώτης ὁ καὶ παραδοὺς αὐτόν.
Has somebody the Vetus Latina versions of this text (a c e) ?.
I don't think the old Latin versions are going to help with this one, really.
I'd say that this περιάγοντας is somewhat awkward, but that it accords with an implicit αὐτοὺς as subject of the infinitive κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, so that the sense is: "and to go about and preach the gospel" or more literally,"and going about to preach the gospel." That is to say: the participle of "attendant circumstances" agrees with the implicit accusative subject o the infinitive. It's not an accusative absolute. Traditionally the term "accusative absolute" is used for a neuter singular participle of an impersonal verb that has no subject. Cf. BDF §424.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Richard Budelberger
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by Richard Budelberger »

cwconrad wrote: I don't think the old Latin versions are going to help with this one, really.
I'd say that this περιάγοντας is somewhat awkward, but that it accords with an implicit αὐτοὺς as subject of the infinitive κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, so that the sense is: "and to go about and preach the gospel" or more literally,"and going about to preach the gospel." That is to say: the participle of "attendant circumstances" agrees with the implicit accusative subject o the infinitive. It's not an accusative absolute. Traditionally the term "accusative absolute" is used for a neuter singular participle of an impersonal verb that has no subject. Cf. BDF §424.
Thanks to both of you.

My understanding was (since 2006… when I first studied W) was :

  ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν
            θεραπεύειν τὰς νόσους
      καὶ ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια
      καὶ
            περιάγοντας
            κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,

that is

  he gave them power
             to heal sicknesses,
      and to cast out devils
      and,
            [while] going about,
            to preach the gospel.


(Note : in W, the Twelve are… eleven – and (cf. Mk 16, 14 l. 5) twelve (Ι̅Β) soon after Jesus’ death… –, and this group of 11 has a nickname : “Boananerge, the Sons of Thunder” !
ἐποίησεν δώδεκα μαθητὰς, κοινῶς δὲ αὐτοὺς ἐκάλεσεν Βοανανηργε, ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς· ἦσαν δὲ οὗτοι ① Σίμων καὶ ② Ἀνδρέας, ③ Ἰάκωβος καὶ ④ Ἰωάννης, ⑤ Φίλιππος καὶ ⑥ Βαρθολομαῖος, καὶ ⑦ Μαθθαῖος, καὶ ⑧ Θωμᾶς, καὶ ⑨ Ἰάκωβος ὁ τοῦ Ἁλφαίου, καὶ ⑩ Σίμων ὁ Καναναῖος καὶ ⑪ Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριώτης ὁ καὶ παραδοὺς αὐτόν
 ; that’s because omitting, forgetting, hiding, deleting, the other Ἀνδρέας…)
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by cwconrad »

Richard Budelberger wrote:
cwconrad wrote: I don't think the old Latin versions are going to help with this one, really.
I'd say that this περιάγοντας is somewhat awkward, but that it accords with an implicit αὐτοὺς as subject of the infinitive κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον, so that the sense is: "and to go about and preach the gospel" or more literally,"and going about to preach the gospel." That is to say: the participle of "attendant circumstances" agrees with the implicit accusative subject o the infinitive. It's not an accusative absolute. Traditionally the term "accusative absolute" is used for a neuter singular participle of an impersonal verb that has no subject. Cf. BDF §424.
Thanks to both of you.

My understanding was (since 2006… when I first studied W) was :

  ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν
            θεραπεύειν τὰς νόσους
      καὶ ἐκβάλλειν τὰ δαιμόνια
      καὶ
            περιάγοντας
            κηρύσσειν τὸ εὐαγγέλιον,
Yes; in older Greek I think we might have had περιάγοντας as a dative περιάγουσι(ν) to agree with αὐτοῖς, but here it seems to me that the "rule" being observed is that the subject of an infinitive is in the accusative.
Richard Budelberger wrote:that is

  he gave them power
             to heal sicknesses,
      and to cast out devils
      and,
            [while] going about,
            to preach the gospel.
You're evidently understanding the sense in the same manner as I do. At any rate, I think that's the best understanding of the form of the participle; it's certainly not an accusative absolute.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Richard Budelberger
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by Richard Budelberger »

cwconrad wrote:Traditionally the term "accusative absolute" is used…
May I say that “traditionally” and “New Testament Greek” is a kind of oxymoron ?… :-) (Otherwise, one must correct Luke in 4, 1 : « ἤγετο ἐν τῷ πνεύματι ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ » (best manuscripts : W D), corrected in « ἤγετο ἐν τῷ πνεύματι εἰς τὴν ἔρημον » (worst manuscripts) !…)
cwconrad wrote:Yes; in older Greek I think we might have had περιάγοντας as a dative περιάγουσι(ν) to agree with αὐτοῖς, but here it seems to me that the "rule" being observed is that the subject of an infinitive is in the accusative.
May I propose : περιάγουσι(ν) agrees with αὐτοῖς, but, as a participle of “attendant circumstances”, being the qualifier of the implicit subject of the infinitive κηρύσσειν – that is αὐτοὺς – which needs to be to the accustaive, suffers an “agreement attraction” and turns to accusative, περιάγοντας ?
cwconrad wrote:At any rate, I think that's the best understanding of the form of the participle; it's certainly not an accusative absolute.
Even the best Latin author, Caesar, doesn’t respect our rules for the genitive absolute…
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by cwconrad »

Richard Budelberger wrote:
cwconrad wrote:Traditionally the term "accusative absolute" is used…
May I say that “traditionally” and “New Testament Greek” is a kind of oxymoron ?… :-) (Otherwise, one must correct Luke in 4, 1 : « ἤγετο ἐν τῷ πνεύματι ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ » (best manuscripts : W D), corrected in « ἤγετο ἐν τῷ πνεύματι εἰς τὴν ἔρημον » (worst manuscripts) !…)
You may have misunderstood me; by "traditionally" I meant "in terms of traditional grammatical analysis", i.e., according to the way grammarians have traditionally talked about these constructions.
cwconrad wrote:Yes; in older Greek I think we might have had περιάγοντας as a dative περιάγουσι(ν) to agree with αὐτοῖς, but here it seems to me that the "rule" being observed is that the subject of an infinitive is in the accusative.
Richard Budelberger wrote:May I propose : περιάγουσι(ν) agrees with αὐτοῖς, but, as a participle of “attendant circumstances”, being the qualifier of the implicit subject of the infinitive κηρύσσειν – that is αὐτοὺς – which needs to be to the accusatiive, suffers an “agreement attraction” and turns to accusative, περιάγοντας ?
Again I may be misunderstanding you -- or we may be in agreement here. Actually I think that the accusative participle here is appropriate, but what I've seen in older Greek is that it gets attracted into the case of the antecedent dative.
cwconrad wrote:At any rate, I think that's the best understanding of the form of the participle; it's certainly not an accusative absolute.
Richard Budelberger wrote:Even the best Latin author, Caesar, doesn’t respect our rules for the genitive absolute…
What Greek compositions of Caesar are you referring to? He certainly uses the ablative absolute correctly in Latin. Is he really the "best" Latin author? He's very good, certainly, but Sunt qui Ciceronem malint.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Richard Budelberger
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by Richard Budelberger »

cwconrad wrote:
Richard Budelberger wrote:Even the best Latin author, Caesar, doesn’t respect our rules for the genitive absolute…
What Greek compositions of Caesar are you referring to?
Excuse me, “genitive absolute” is an error for “ablative absolute”…
cwconrad wrote:He certainly uses the ablative absolute correctly in Latin.
De Bello Gallico, V, 44, 6 : « Mediocri spatio relicto Pullo pilum in hostes immittit atque unum ex multitudine procurrentem traicit; quo percusso et exanimato hunc scutis protegunt, in hostem tela uniuersi coniciunt neque dant regrediendi facultatem. »
cwconrad wrote:Is he really the "best" Latin author? He's very good, certainly, but Sunt qui Ciceronem malint.
Ad Atticum, VII, 9, 2 : « cum sit necesse aut haberi Caesaris rationem, illo exercitum vel per senatum vel per tribunos obtinente, aut persuaderi Caesari ut tradat provinciam atque exercitum et ita consul fiat aut, si id ei non persuadeatur, haberi comitia sine illius ratione, illo patiente atque obtinente provinciam, aut... »
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Re: An accusative absolute ? [Mk 3, 15var] [W 032]

Post by cwconrad »

Richard Budelberger wrote:
cwconrad wrote:He certainly uses the ablative absolute correctly in Latin.
De Bello Gallico, V, 44, 6 : « Mediocri spatio relicto Pullo pilum in hostes immittit atque unum ex multitudine procurrentem traicit; quo percusso et exanimato hunc scutis protegunt, in hostem tela uniuersi coniciunt neque dant regrediendi facultatem. »
I don't understand your bold-faced accusatives unum ex multitudine procurrentem and hunc; I see the former as object of traicit and the latter of protegunt; I see no violation of standard Latin grammar there, nor do I see any in the two ablative-absolutes in this passage, namely Mediocri spatio relicto and quo percusso et exanimato
Richard Budelberger wrote:Ad Atticum, VII, 9, 2 : « cum sit necesse aut haberi Caesaris rationem, illo exercitum vel per senatum vel per tribunos obtinente, aut persuaderi Caesari ut tradat provinciam atque exercitum et ita consul fiat aut, si id ei non persuadeatur, haberi comitia sine illius ratione, illo patiente atque obtinente provinciam, aut... »
Okay, we have two ablative-absolute constructions here, illo exercitum vel per senatum vel per tribunos obtinente and illo patiente atque obtinente provinciam, neither of them problematic, so far as I can see. However, this forum is for discussion of Greek syntax and grammar; let's not get more deeply involved in a discussion of Latin usage.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Perhaps you mean Thaddeus?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I realise it is perhaps trivial, but...
Richard Budelberger wrote:(Note : in W, the Twelve are… eleven – and (cf. Mk 16, 14 l. 5) twelve (Ι̅Β) soon after Jesus’ death… –, and this group of 11 has a nickname : “Boananerge, the Sons of Thunder” !
ἐποίησεν δώδεκα μαθητὰς, κοινῶς δὲ αὐτοὺς ἐκάλεσεν Βοανανηργε, ὅ ἐστιν Υἱοὶ Βροντῆς· ἦσαν δὲ οὗτοι ① Σίμων καὶ ② Ἀνδρέας, ③ Ἰάκωβος καὶ ④ Ἰωάννης, ⑤ Φίλιππος καὶ ⑥ Βαρθολομαῖος, καὶ ⑦ Μαθθαῖος, καὶ ⑧ Θωμᾶς, καὶ ⑨ Ἰάκωβος ὁ τοῦ Ἁλφαίου, καὶ ⑩ Σίμων ὁ Καναναῖος καὶ ⑪ Ἰούδας Ἰσκαριώτης ὁ καὶ παραδοὺς αὐτόν
 ; that’s because omitting, forgetting, hiding, deleting, the other Ἀνδρέας…)
Perhaps Thaddeus?
Mark 3:18 (PR2005) wrote:καὶ Ἀνδρέαν, καὶ Φίλιππον, καὶ Βαρθολομαῖον, καὶ Ματθαῖον, καὶ Θωμᾶν, καὶ Ἰάκωβον τὸν τοῦ Ἀλφαίου, καὶ Θαδδαῖον, καὶ Σίμωνα τὸν Κανανίτην
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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