Comparative with gen./ἢ (inc. question form)/ὑπὲρ

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Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Comparative with gen./ἢ (inc. question form)/ὑπὲρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Is there any meaningful distinction between the comparative with ὑπὲρ, the genitive or ἢ?

What I can see is that (+gen.) is used with regular adjectival force.
Matthew 12:45 wrote:Τότε πορεύεται καὶ παραλαμβάνει μεθ’ ἑαυτοῦ ἑπτὰ ἕτερα πνεύματα πονηρότερα ἑαυτοῦ,
Luke 5:20 wrote:καὶ μείζονα τούτων δείξει αὐτῷ ἔργα, ἵνα ὑμεῖς θαυμάζητε.
1 Peter 1:7 wrote:ἵνα τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως πολὺ τιμιώτερον χρυσίου τοῦ ἀπολλυμένου,
ἢ seems to be only used with impersonal constructions.
Mark 6:11 wrote:Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀνεκτότερον ἔσται Σοδόμοις ἢ Γομόρροις ἐν ἡμέρᾳ κρίσεως, τῇ πόλει ἐκείνῃ.
Mark 10:25 wrote:Εὐκοπώτερόν ἐστιν κάμηλον διὰ τῆς τρυμαλιᾶς τῆς ῥαφίδος εἰσελθεῖν, πλούσιον εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσελθεῖν.
Perhaps a question in Greek like Luke 5:23 is not an alternative of equals such as it appears in English.
Luke 5:23 wrote:Τί ἐστιν εὐκοπώτερον, εἰπεῖν, Ἀφέωνταί σοι αἱ ἁμαρτίαι σου, εἰπεῖν, Ἔγειραι καὶ περιπάτει;
The first mentioned alternative is often the one that is the expected reply.

What I really have no idea about are these two instances with ὑπὲρ.
Luke 16:8 wrote:ὅτι οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου φρονιμώτεροι ὑπὲρ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ φωτὸς εἰς τὴν γενεὰν τὴν ἑαυτῶν εἰσιν.
Hebrews 4:12 wrote:Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον,
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
cwconrad
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Re: Comparative with gen./ἢ (inc. question form)/ὑπὲρ

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Is there any meaningful distinction between the comparative with ὑπὲρ, the genitive or ἢ?
...What I really have no idea about are these two instances with ὑπὲρ.
Luke 16:8 wrote:ὅτι οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου φρονιμώτεροι ὑπὲρ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ φωτὸς εἰς τὴν γενεὰν τὴν ἑαυτῶν εἰσιν.
Hebrews 4:12 wrote:Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον,
Might this be a Semitism? I suspect also that every language has its less-frequently-used alternatives for expressions of comparisons. It seems to me I've seen παρὰ used in some constructions of comparison too. For ὑπὲρ I think of the not uncommon English "above and beyond"
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Comparative with gen./ἢ (inc. question form)/ὑπὲρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

cwconrad wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Is there any meaningful distinction between the comparative with ὑπὲρ, the genitive or ἢ?
...What I really have no idea about are these two instances with ὑπὲρ.
Luke 16:8 wrote:ὅτι οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου φρονιμώτεροι ὑπὲρ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ φωτὸς εἰς τὴν γενεὰν τὴν ἑαυτῶν εἰσιν.
Hebrews 4:12 wrote:Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἐνεργής, καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον,
Might this be a Semitism? I suspect also that every language has its less-frequently-used alternatives for expressions of comparisons. It seems to me I've seen παρὰ used in some constructions of comparison too. For ὑπὲρ I think of the not uncommon English "above and beyond"
Considering the authours, I was reluctant to posit that as an answer.

Does Semitic have a preposition in comparative structures than means "above and beyond"? This question is out of my depth, I belong in the wading pool with Hebrew and Aramaic.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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