Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Stephen Hughes
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Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2015, 7:59 pm

Romans 12:1-2 wrote:1 Παρακαλῶ οὖν ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τῶν οἰκτιρμῶν τοῦ θεοῦ, παραστῆσαι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν θυσίαν ζῶσαν, ἁγίαν, εὐάρεστον τῷ θεῷ, τὴν λογικὴν λατρείαν ὑμῶν. 2 Καὶ μὴ συσχηματίζεσθαιτῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθαι τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοὸς ὑμῶν, εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον.
I don't know why I didn't ask this question 30 years ago, and it has never been an issue, but anyway... What is the difference between a list of adjectives one after the other and a list with καί between them? The Romans quote is an example where they both occur in the same paragraph.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

George F Somsel
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by George F Somsel » January 16th, 2015, 9:05 pm

What is the difference between "good, bad, indifferent, ugly" and "good and bad and indifferent and ugly"? I would suggest that it is purely stylistic without any impact upon its signification.
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george
gfsomsel



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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2015, 9:48 pm

George F Somsel wrote:What is the difference between "good, bad, indifferent, ugly" and "good and bad and indifferent and ugly"? I would suggest that it is purely stylistic without any impact upon its signification.
Greek seems to allow either of those patterns, while English highly prefers the mixed pattern "good, bad, indifferent and ugly", but I don't recall seeing a mixed pattern like that in Greek.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

George F Somsel
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by George F Somsel » January 16th, 2015, 10:22 pm

This is probably not what you are thinking of, but here is another example of nouns joined by και.
18 ἵνα ἐξισχύσητε καταλαβέσθαι σὺν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἁγίοις τί τὸ πλάτος καὶ ⸉μῆκος καὶ ὕψος καὶ βάθος⸊,* 19 γνῶναί τε τὴν ὑπερβάλλουσαν τῆς γνώσεως ἀγάπην τοῦ Χριστοῦ,* ἵνα ⸂πληρωθῆτε εἰς⸃ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ θεοῦ⸆.*
Eberhard Nestle and Erwin Nestle, Nestle-Aland: Novum Testamentum Graece, ed. Barbara Aland et al., 28. revidierte Auflage. (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 2012), Eph 3:18–19.

Don't worry about the squares—they are simply the indications of textual variants which don't copy well in the forum.
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george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2015, 10:23 pm

Matthew 15:30 wrote:Καὶ προσῆλθον αὐτῷ ὄχλοι πολλοί, ἔχοντες μεθ’ ἑαυτῶν χωλούς, τυφλούς, κωφούς, κυλλούς, καὶ ἑτέρους πολλούς, καὶ ἔρριψαν αὐτοὺς παρὰ τοὺς πόδας τοῦ Ἰησοῦ καὶ ἐθεράπευσεν αὐτούς·
Is the καὶ ἑτέρους πολλούς here part of the list or an addition?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 16th, 2015, 10:25 pm

George F Somsel wrote:This is probably not what you are thinking of, but here is another example of nouns joined by και.
18 ἵνα ἐξισχύσητε καταλαβέσθαι σὺν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἁγίοις τί τὸ πλάτος καὶ ⸉μῆκος καὶ ὕψος καὶ βάθος⸊,* 19 γνῶναί τε τὴν ὑπερβάλλουσαν τῆς γνώσεως ἀγάπην τοῦ Χριστοῦ,* ἵνα ⸂πληρωθῆτε εἰς⸃ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ θεοῦ⸆.*
Eberhard Nestle and Erwin Nestle, Nestle-Aland: Novum Testamentum Graece, ed. Barbara Aland et al., 28. revidierte Auflage. (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 2012), Eph 3:18–19.

Don't worry about the squares—they are simply the indications of textual variants which don't copy well in the forum.
I don't make much of the difference between nouns and adjectives, no. The goose and the gander both eat and drink from the same bowl.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

George F Somsel
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by George F Somsel » January 16th, 2015, 10:56 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Is the καὶ ἑτέρους πολλούς here part of the list or an addition?
Yes, i.e., it is an addition to the list and thus part of it.
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george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 17th, 2015, 12:04 am

George F Somsel wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:
Is the καὶ ἑτέρους πολλούς here part of the list or an addition?
Yes, i.e., it is an addition to the list and thus part of it.
Whether one makes that logical assumption or not, it is not an adjective.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

George F Somsel
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Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by George F Somsel » January 17th, 2015, 12:18 am

Are you sure of that? What else would πολλούς be? Certainly not a noun.
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george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



- Jan Hus

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Syntax - lists of adjectives with(out) καί

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 17th, 2015, 2:34 am

George F Somsel wrote:Are you sure of that? What else would πολλούς be? Certainly not a noun.
Yes, I checked and I see your point about πολλούς, but anyway, I mean that the pronoun ἕτερος is not an adjective, it's a pronoun. At some levels it functions like an adjective, but it also has a syntactic function.

Actually, I'm surprised that πολύς is called an adjective along with things like χωλός, τυφλός, κωφός, κυλλός. They all point out one type of person, while πολύς is like waving the hands in the air to make a point about size or extent, or something like that. It is not pointing out a particular group.

I think of this like a pie graph, with the data from the last category "others" needing to be treated in a different way to the rest that have more specific definitions.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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