Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adjecti

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Stephen Hughes
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Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adjecti

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 29th, 2015, 11:50 am

The second noun is usually related to the first by being in the genitive as we know, but additionally in some cases, the second noun can be related to the first in the accusative as if it were the direct object of the noun from which the verbal noun or adjective is derived.

Can the lists be used to generate a list of those from the corpus?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adj

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 29th, 2015, 11:53 am

Do you have a small list of examples I can start with? That helps me know what to look for in the trees.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adj

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 30th, 2015, 1:15 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Do you have a small list of examples I can start with? That helps me know what to look for in the trees.
No. I don't.

I want to know if there are any NT corpus examples which approximate the model of:
Smyth wrote: [*] 1598. The accusative is rarely found after verbal nouns and adjectives, and in periphrastic expressions equivalent to a transitive verb. (This usage is post-Homeric and chiefly poetical.)

χοὰ_ς προπομπός (= προπέμπουσα) escorting the libations A. Ch. 23, ““τὰ μετέωρα φροντιστής” a speculator about things above the earth” P. A. 18b, ““ἐπιστήμονες ἦσαν τὰ προσήκοντα” they were acquainted with their duties” X. C. 3.3.9, πόλεμος ἄπορα πόριμος war providing difficulties (things for which there is no provision) A. Pr. 904, πολλὰ συνίστωρ (a house) full of guilty secrets A. Ag. 1090, ““σὲ φύξιμος” able to escape thee” S. Ant. 787; ἔξαρνός εἰμι (= ἐξαρνοῦμαι) τὰ ἐρωτώμενα say ‘no’ to the question P. Charm. 158c, ““τεθνᾶσι τῷ δέει τοὺς ἀποστόλους” they are in mortal fear of the envoys” D. 4.45; other cases 1612
The construction with a dative (easily explicable as of respect) found in
Acts 14:8 wrote:Καί τις ἀνὴρ ἐν Λύστροις ἀδύνατος τοῖς ποσὶν ἐκάθητο , χωλὸς ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων, ὃς οὐδέποτε περιπεπατήκει.
, but I'm wondering if there are any with accusatives like this pattern.

My query also relates to;
George F Somsel [url=http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2006-June/038816.html]in the archives[/url] (Wed Jun 7 13:15:37 EDT 2006) wrote:2. Verbal Adjectives. As a matter of fact no absolutely clear line can be drawn between verbal adjectives and other adjectives. An adjective may not only be used with a case like κενός with the ablative, but may even take on a verbal nature in certain connections. Some, like κλυτός [Non-NT word - "renowned", "glorious", SGH], were always purely adjectival. Most of the forms in -τος in Greek are adjectival, but many of them have a verbal idea developed also, either that of completion, as ἀγαπητός (‘beloved,’ Mt. 3:17), or of possibility or capability, as παθητός (‘liable to suffering,’ Ac. 26:23). In Greek these verbals in –ôïò [????, SGH] never became a part of the verb as in Latin perfect passive participle.  Moulton shows how amatus est and “he is loved” represent different tenses, but scriptum est and “it is written” agree. But there was no reason why the -τος should not have had a further verbal development in Greek. For the structure of this verbal adjective see the chapter on Formation of Words, where a list of the chief examples is given. Moulton points out the wavering between the active and passive idea when the true verbal exists in the N. T., by the example of ἀδύνατον in Ro. 8:3. Is it ‘incapable’ as in Ro. 15:1 or ‘impossible’ as is usual? Blass indeed denies the verbal character of the -τος form in the N. T. to any examples except παθητός (Ac. 26:23). But this is too extreme, as Moulton clearly proves. ἀσύνετος is active in Ro. 1:31 while ἀσύνθετος is middle (συντίθεμαι). With the forms in -τος therefore two points have to be watched: first, if they are verbal at all, and then, if they are active, middle or passive. There is no doubt as to the verbal character of the form in -τεος, which expresses the idea of necessity. This is in fact a gerundive [Page 373] and is closely allied to the -τος form. It has both a personal construction and the impersonal, and governs cases like the verb. It is not in Homer (though -τος is common), and the first example in Greek is in Hesiod. The N. T. shows only one example, βλητέον (Lu. 5:38), impersonal and governing the accusative. It appears in a few MSS. in the parallel passage in Mk. 2:22. One further remark is to be made about the verbals, which is that some participles lose their verbal force and drop back to the purely adjectival function. So ἑκών, μέλλων in the sense of ‘future.’ Cf. eloquens and sapiens in Latin. In general, just as the infinitive and the gerund were surrounded by many other verbal substantives, so the participle and the gerundive come out of many other verbal adjectives. In the Sanskrit, as one would expect, the division-line between the participle and ordinary adjectives is less sharply drawn. Robertson, A. (1919; 2006). A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (372). Logos.
GFS refers to Blass as only admitting one instance of a verbal adjective with a verbal force in
Acts 26:23 wrote:εἰ παθητὸς ὁ χριστός, εἰ πρῶτος ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν φῶς μέλλει καταγγέλλειν τῷ λαῷ καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν.
, but that does not have an object (either object accusative or objective genitive).

I am wondering whether the verbal adjectives in -τος are being used in a syntactically different way to other adjectives and/or participles, and whether that would be a way to determine whether they have any verbal character.

I am fishing for examples rather than that I have any single example now.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adj

Post by Jonathan Robie » April 30th, 2015, 8:54 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:I am fishing for examples rather than that I have any single example now.
OK, but fishing takes time, and I'm mostly fishing for participles and infinitives right now. If I see examples of what you are looking for, it's easier to think about how they are represented in the treebank.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Testing the trees - accusative with a verbal noun or adj

Post by Stephen Hughes » April 30th, 2015, 9:57 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I am fishing for examples rather than that I have any single example now.
OK, but fishing takes time, and I'm mostly fishing for participles and infinitives right now. If I see examples of what you are looking for, it's easier to think about how they are represented in the treebank.
One of the examples from Smyth (and Goodwin for that matter) is
Plato, [i]Apology[/i] 18b (adapted) wrote:“τὰ μετέωρα φροντιστής” a speculator about things above the earth” P. A. 18b
In situ it is
Plato, [i]Apology[/i] 18b wrote:σοφὸς ἀνήρ, τά τε μετέωρα φροντιστής, καὶ τὰ ὑπὸ γῆς ἅπαντα ἀνεζητηκώς
How would the relationship between the τὰ μετέωρα as the object accusative of the verbal noun φροντιστής (=φρονίζων) be represented in the trees. I have no idea, but perhaps it would be the same way as an (articular or not) infinitive after an adjective.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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