Parsing Greek texts

Alan Bunning
Posts: 299
Joined: June 5th, 2011, 7:31 am
Contact:

Parsing Greek texts

Post by Alan Bunning »

I am in the process of preparing to parse all of the Greek texts at the Center for New Testament Restoration (http://cntr.t15.org). For my prototype, I had started using NA27 and compared my parsing with both Robinson’s and Tauber’s. Tauber has since switched to using the SBL text and I have decided to do so as well. Currently there are only about 180 cases where my parsing differs from Tauber’s and I would like some help resolving these remaining differences. Obviously a lot of this is somewhat subjective, but I would like to know people’s preferences.

For example, with the word καθὼς, I had it always listed as an adverb, while Tauber always lists it as a conjunction. Bauer lists it as an adverb, but then says it acts as a conjunction in John 17:2, Rom. 1:28, 1Cor. 1:6, 5:7, Eph. 1:4, 4:32, Phil. 1:7. Even in those cases, to me it still seems to be an adverb. What do you think about this one example?

And then, do you want to be bothered with 180 posts? Would someone like to volunteer to help me resolve these differences? Or should I try to hash them out with Tauber first?
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4162
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Jonathan Robie »

First off, I'm extremely happy for all the work you are doing on these resources, and looking forward to seeing you present them at SBL 2015.

We currently coordinate morphological interpretation between the GBI syntax trees, Lowfat syntax trees (derived form GBI), and MorphGNT for both SBLGNT and Nestle 1904 (which we maintain in addition to SBLGNT because it has a more open license. By coordinating with Tauber's parsing, you're coordinating with all of this.

I'd suggest that we discuss the conceptual questions here on B-Greek, the kind of thing where you might expect disagreement or reasoned discussion. I'd suggest that you raise obvious bugs on github.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jonathan Robie wrote:I'd suggest that we discuss the conceptual questions here on B-Greek, the kind of thing where you might expect disagreement or reasoned discussion.
καθώς is one of the ways to use a second verbal phrase as an adverb of the first verbal phrase. A participle as a prodrop element can be used when there is some commonality in the with the persons involved in the verbal phrase - it also has limitations its expression of absolute (rather than relative) temporality, it is also limited in its ability to introduce participants from outside the present situation. A relative clause allow the introduction of external elements when there is some commonality in a nominal element. When there is some commonality in the nature of the verbal action - a commonality based on affinity of one action to another then things like καθώς, ὡς ὡσαύτως. It is a way of turning a full expressed verbal phrase into an adverb - if it is either a fixed quotation (from scripture) which one doesn't have the liberty to adapt, or when there is a need to fully spell out all the things that a full verbal phrase can spell out, in the verbal element that is being used as an adverb or the first verb. The classical form of the adverbial participle which we only see in ὑπερβαλλόντως "exceedingly" and ὄντως "really" is a way of using the verb in its most abstract conception as an adverb.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Alan, parsing normally refers to the breakdown of an inflected word. What you were talking about is identifying its usage as a part of speech. I suspect that most of the differences that you've identified are simple differences in terminology, or disagreements on the use of the word in context. BTW, I would identify καθῶς as an adverbial conjunction... :roll:
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Alan Bunning
Posts: 299
Joined: June 5th, 2011, 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Alan Bunning »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Alan, parsing normally refers to the breakdown of an inflected word. What you were talking about is identifying its usage as a part of speech. I suspect that most of the differences that you've identified are simple differences in terminology, or disagreements on the use of the word in context. BTW, I would identify καθῶς as an adverbial conjunction... :roll:
Well, I don't have that category right now, so if you could only pick one - adverb or conjunction - which would you choose?
jtauber
Posts: 60
Joined: May 31st, 2011, 11:34 am
Location: Burlington, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by jtauber »

I inherited the interpretation as a conjunction from the CCAT analysis and, because it isn't a morphological decision, have not done anything to evaluate / reassess it.

This is one reason why in my own work (at least in the MorphGNT), I'm (slowly) moving towards more cleanly separating questions of inflectional morphology out from other things.

But to give it a label beyond simply it not being inflected, there are probably useful syntactic diagnoses to consider. From a dependency point of view: what is its head and what are its dependents? Perhaps its relationship to its head suggests an adverbial function but the fact it has a verbal dependent might suggests a conjunction[1]. If there's no part-of-speech category for expressing this, one is left with having to chose between adverb and conjunction when really it has aspects of both.

I wonder therefore, if it best to have a new label for it. There's no loss of information that way (you can turn it into adverb or conjunction as appropriate when comparing with analyses that do one or the other).

James

[1] note that the GBI Syntax Trees don't model subordinating conjunction that way so need a little bit of tweaking to extract the necessary diagnosis
James Tauber
http://jktauber.com/
jtauber
Posts: 60
Joined: May 31st, 2011, 11:34 am
Location: Burlington, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by jtauber »

Alan Bunning wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Alan, parsing normally refers to the breakdown of an inflected word. What you were talking about is identifying its usage as a part of speech. I suspect that most of the differences that you've identified are simple differences in terminology, or disagreements on the use of the word in context. BTW, I would identify καθῶς as an adverbial conjunction... :roll:
Well, I don't have that category right now, so if you could only pick one - adverb or conjunction - which would you choose?
I'd say conjunction. Within the category of a conjunction you can refine it further as an adverbial conjunction or even comparative conjunction later.
James Tauber
http://jktauber.com/
George F Somsel
Posts: 172
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 10:11 am

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by George F Somsel »

James Tauber wrote:
I wonder therefore, if it best to have a new label for it. There's no loss of information that way (you can turn it into adverb or conjunction as appropriate when comparing with analyses that do one or the other).
How about an "advjunction"? :D
george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



- Jan Hus
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Stephen Carlson »

The word class of "adverb" is notoriously heterogeneous. Some treatments group a bunch of different under the label; others spit them into manner adverbials, particles, discourse markers, etc. Compounding the problem is that many words broadly classified as adverbs are polysemous among the more finely discriminated subclasses. I'd say there's no one universally accepted way to answer the question.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I thought we were discussing the adverbiality of subordinate clauses in Greek, and the various ways of adapting a verbal phrase for use adverbially. I didn't realise it was a question about what terminology people like. Perhaps we can discuss subordination and adverbiality more generally in another thread.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Post Reply

Return to “Syntax and Grammar”