The discursive use of και

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MAymer
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The discursive use of και

Post by MAymer » September 9th, 2019, 12:52 pm

I've been doing some reading on my own through Runge and Levinsohn's discourse textbooks, and I'm wondering something.

If και used connectively typically joins two items of equivalent value, what are we to make of 1 Pet 5:13

ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς ἡ ἐν Βαβυλῶνι συνεκλεκτὴ
ΚΑΙ
Μᾶρκος ὁ υἱός μου.

Can we really argue that the former is a collection of persons and the latter is a solo person if we're thinking discursively, or does the και leave the door open for ἡ...συνεκλεκτη to be a solo person also?

MA
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 9th, 2019, 2:33 pm

I suspect that you are misunderstanding Levinsohn. In the future you should cite your reference books by page and section. Levinsohn DFNTG 2nd ed 2000, p124 §7.3 "conjunctive και 'is used to link items of equal status' " a citation from Porter 1992:212. My reading of this: Equal status means that the constituents joined by και occupy the same position in the discourse hierarchy and has the same discourse function.

I could be wrong. Levinsohn's work is difficult material and when he cites from Porter things get really confusing since Porter in 1992 was working within a different framework than Levinsohn.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Daniel Semler
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Daniel Semler » September 9th, 2019, 10:05 pm

MAymer wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 12:52 pm
I've been doing some reading on my own through Runge and Levinsohn's discourse textbooks, and I'm wondering something.

If και used connectively typically joins two items of equivalent value, what are we to make of 1 Pet 5:13

ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς ἡ ἐν Βαβυλῶνι συνεκλεκτὴ
ΚΑΙ
Μᾶρκος ὁ υἱός μου.

Can we really argue that the former is a collection of persons and the latter is a solo person if we're thinking discursively, or does the και leave the door open for ἡ...συνεκλεκτη to be a solo person also?

MA
I don't see how καὶ would have a bearing on number here, considered from a discourse perspective or otherwise. ἡ...συνεκλεκτη is fem. sing. Isn't this just a regular compound subject with a singular verb ?

But perhaps I'm missing what you are asking about ...

Thx
D
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 10th, 2019, 8:43 am

I haven't read Levinsohn and don't remember the language ("of equivalent value") from Runge, but I suspect it means that καἰ normally connects the same sorts of things, such as two nouns, or two phrases, or two clauses, etc. For example:

ἀνὴρ καὶ γυνή, not ἀνὴρ καὶ ἔρχεσθε (which would obviously be nonsense).
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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MAymer
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by MAymer » September 10th, 2019, 6:51 pm

Exactly, Barry.

However, ἡ συνεκλεκτὴ is often read as a compound noun, the church in Babylon, rather than a single common noun equivalent to Μαρκος. And Daniel, my query is not with the singular verb, but with the two joined nominatives.

I concur that they are of equivalent discursive weight, but it seems odd then that an entire collection of persons would be represented in the first noun, and a singular person in the second.

That's my question in a nub.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 16th, 2019, 1:21 pm

MAymer wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 6:51 pm
Exactly, Barry.

However, ἡ συνεκλεκτὴ is often read as a compound noun, the church in Babylon, rather than a single common noun equivalent to Μαρκος. And Daniel, my query is not with the singular verb, but with the two joined nominatives.

I concur that they are of equivalent discursive weight, but it seems odd then that an entire collection of persons would be represented in the first noun, and a singular person in the second.

That's my question in a nub.
They are both singular substantives grammatically, regardless of their semantic content.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Daniel Semler
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Daniel Semler » September 17th, 2019, 9:53 am

MAymer wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 6:51 pm
Exactly, Barry.

However, ἡ συνεκλεκτὴ is often read as a compound noun, the church in Babylon, rather than a single common noun equivalent to Μαρκος. And Daniel, my query is not with the singular verb, but with the two joined nominatives.

I concur that they are of equivalent discursive weight, but it seems odd then that an entire collection of persons would be represented in the first noun, and a singular person in the second.

That's my question in a nub.
I had begun a post on this a few days back but have not found time to follow up further. I basically arrived at the position that you require a clear definition of status was required to determine the answer to your question. Is a grouping noun like συνεκλεκτὴ, ἐκκλησία and so on are of the same status (or grammatical rank) as singular non-grouping nouns, according to the authors cited by Levinsohn ? I say grammatical rank as Levinsohn in this passage also refers the reader to section 6.2 (p99 and top of page 100) where, in describing conjunctive καὶ he refers to rank in Titrud. Now, I don't have Porter's so trying to establish precisely what he means by "status" is difficult, but Titrud's paper is available here https://www.sil.org/system/files/reapda ... NOT5_1.pdf.

I don't know if any of that helps and I don't know if either Titrud or Porter address this point, but that's where I would start.

I might add, that we say something very similar in English, "Pastor X and the congregation send their greetings", and any number of similar examples. Except for the plural verb it's basically the same.

Thx
D
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: The discursive use of και

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 17th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
September 17th, 2019, 9:53 am

I had begun a post on this a few days back but have not found time to follow up further. I basically arrived at the position that you require a clear definition of status was required to determine the answer to your question. Is a grouping noun like συνεκλεκτὴ, ἐκκλησία and so on are of the same status (or grammatical rank) as singular non-grouping nouns, according to the authors cited by Levinsohn ? I say grammatical rank as Levinsohn in this passage also refers the reader to section 6.2 (p99 and top of page 100) where, in describing conjunctive καὶ he refers to rank in Titrud. Now, I don't have Porter's so trying to establish precisely what he means by "status" is difficult, but Titrud's paper is available here https://www.sil.org/system/files/reapda ... NOT5_1.pdf.

I don't know if any of that helps and I don't know if either Titrud or Porter address this point, but that's where I would start.
Yes. It would be nice to know what exactly the OP was reading when the question came to mind. When people start talking about Levinsohn, Porter, Runge ... Titrud, it sometimes appears that they haven't yet grasped what the whole discussion is about. Their attempt to draw exegetical inferences from what they are reading seems to indicate that the big picture, what is "on the table" for discussion, has been missed. Reading these authors in isolation is hazardous.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

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