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Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 10:08 am
by Daniel Semler
Hi ya,

Reading :

“Μέμνησο, ὅτι οὐχ ὁ λοιδορῶν ἢ ὁ τύπτων ὑβρίζει, ἀλλὰ τὸ δόγμα τὸ περὶ τούτων ὡς ὑβριζόντων. ὅταν οὖν ἐρεθίσῃ σέ τις, ἴσθι, ὅτι ἡ σή σε ὑπόληψις ἠρέθικε. τοιγαροῦν ἐν πρώτοις πειρῶ ὑπὸ τῆς φαντασίας μὴ συναρπασθῆναι· ἂν γὰρ ἅπαξ χρόνου καὶ διατριβῆς τύχῃς, ῥᾷον κρατήσεις σεαυτοῦ.”
(Enchiridion 20:1 Works of Epictetus)
https://accordance.bible/link/read/EPICT-T#Enchir._20:1

πειρῶ is a first future, but translations (all 4 I am I using) handle it as one would a 2nd imperative - "try" rather than "I will try".

Smyth speaks of a jussive future noting in particular the second person and giving no first person examples. CGCG notes this usage only mentioning the second person. In English we often enough would say something like, if such and such happens the first thing I would do etc. etc., less often will do. And I can see the same here in that one might well take a jussive sense from "therefore, in the first place, I will try ....." as a kind of teach by example where the real intent is "therefore, in the first place, try ...". And this seems well supported by the context and the following verbs switching to second person.

Any comments or thoughts on this usage of the first future, in particular any similar examples, would be interesting to me.

Thx
D

Re: Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 11:03 am
by Barry Hofstetter
You are parsing it wrong. It's a 2nd singular m/p imperative. 1st person future would be πειράσω.

Re: Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 11:38 am
by Daniel Semler
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:03 am
You are parsing it wrong. It's a 2nd singular m/p imperative. 1st person future would be πειράσω.
Thanx Barry. I actually tried find evidence of exactly that. But I failed. I couldn't find a lex that showed the form. I assumed an intervocular sigma dropped out from the future. I will get the Accordance taggers to double check their tagging as it would be wrong in this case also.

Thx
D

Re: Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 11:51 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Daniel Semler wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:38 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:03 am
You are parsing it wrong. It's a 2nd singular m/p imperative. 1st person future would be πειράσω.
Thanx Barry. I actually tried find evidence of exactly that. But I failed. I couldn't find a lex that showed the form. I assumed an intervocular sigma dropped out from the future. I will get the Accordance taggers to double check their tagging as it would be wrong in this case also.

Thx
D
This is why knowing your paradigms and how the language works beats relying on algorithms any day. You could also have checked a lexicon:
πειράω, contr. [πεῖρα] impf. ἐπείρων, mid. pass. ἐπειρώμην ‖ fut. πειράσω...
Montanari, F. (2015). M. Goh & C. Schroeder (Eds.), The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek. Leiden; Boston: Brill.

And most beginning grammars will have the paradigms neatly laid out, usually in the appendices so you don't have to go hunting through the chapters.

Re: Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 12:00 pm
by Daniel Semler
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:51 am
Daniel Semler wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:38 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 29th, 2020, 11:03 am
You are parsing it wrong. It's a 2nd singular m/p imperative. 1st person future would be πειράσω.
Thanx Barry. I actually tried find evidence of exactly that. But I failed. I couldn't find a lex that showed the form. I assumed an intervocular sigma dropped out from the future. I will get the Accordance taggers to double check their tagging as it would be wrong in this case also.

Thx
D
This is why knowing your paradigms and how the language works beats relying on algorithms any day. You could also have checked a lexicon:
πειράω, contr. [πεῖρα] impf. ἐπείρων, mid. pass. ἐπειρώμην ‖ fut. πειράσω...
Montanari, F. (2015). M. Goh & C. Schroeder (Eds.), The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek. Leiden; Boston: Brill.

And most beginning grammars will have the paradigms neatly laid out, usually in the appendices so you don't have to go hunting through the chapters.
Yep no argument - rookie error for sure which is sad really given how long I've been at this. I'm normally better at figuring this sort of thing out and I feel stupid for sure that it was in the end this. Oh well - live and learn - again and again and again ..... :)

thanx again
D

Lesson, learned

Re: Jussive future ?

Posted: May 29th, 2020, 12:37 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
No need to feel stupid! The mistake reveals that you've already learned quite a bit of Greek, and you should be encouraged by that. I was simply pointing out ways to check this. For myself, I've learned over the years that if something doesn't feel quite right, double and triple check. More than once I've rewritten a post or cancelled altogether because I've suddenly realized oops! And I just hate being caught out. And if you disagree with everybody who's ever published on something, then quadruple check.