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Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 1st, 2011, 4:41 am
by Rossini
Hello everybody,

If in a conditional irrealis clause the timeframe of the protasis is 'earlier' than that of the apodosis, is this expressed by using a different time of the verb? For instance: In a sentence as: If I had studied well, I would have past the exam, does Greek use twice an ind. aorist?

Thanks!

Re: Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 1st, 2011, 11:15 am
by David Lim
Rossini wrote:Hello everybody,

If in a conditional irrealis clause the timeframe of the protasis is 'earlier' than that of the apodosis, is this expressed by using a different time of the verb? For instance: In a sentence as: If I had studied well, I would have past the exam, does Greek use twice an ind. aorist?

Thanks!
Just a small note: "... I would have passed the exam ..." ;)

Re: Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 1st, 2011, 2:08 pm
by cwconrad
Rossini wrote:Hello everybody,

If in a conditional irrealis clause the timeframe of the protasis is 'earlier' than that of the apodosis, is this expressed by using a different time of the verb? For instance: In a sentence as: If I had studied well, I would have past the exam, does Greek use twice an ind. aorist?
In your proposed example, ancient Greek would use an aorist indicative in both clauses, and ἃν would be prefixed or added to the aorist of the apodosis. εἰ ἐμελήτησα, ἐξέφυγον ἂν τὸ ἐλέγχος. It's clear from the formulation which action must have come first (consequences don't ordinarily precede causes). It would have been more helpful, I think, if you'd given a Greek example for your question.

I might just note also, that you really ought not to be using a single name to identify yourself.

Re: Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 2nd, 2011, 10:50 am
by Barry Hofstetter
cwconrad wrote:
In your proposed example, ancient Greek would use an aorist indicative in both clauses, and ἃν would be prefixed or added to the aorist of the apodosis. εἰ ἐμελήτησα, ἐξέφυγον ἂν τὸ ἐλέγχος. It's clear from the formulation which action must have come first (consequences don't ordinarily precede causes). It would have been more helpful, I think, if you'd given a Greek example for your question.

I might just note also, that you really ought not to be using a single name to identify yourself.
And let me add to Carl's excellent response that this construction is usually called "past contrary to fact."

I've occasionally puzzled over the fact that Greek uses the indicative in contrary to facts, but Latin uses the subjunctive. Greek uses the subjunctive for the protasis of future more vivid clauses -- Latin uses the future or the future perfect indicative. I haven't lost any sleep over it -- it's not a hurricane or the economy, but I wonder if anyone has written on this or come up with any theories-- Carl?

Re: Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 2nd, 2011, 2:04 pm
by cwconrad
Barry Hofstetter wrote:I've occasionally puzzled over the fact that Greek uses the indicative in contrary to facts, but Latin uses the subjunctive. Greek uses the subjunctive for the protasis of future more vivid clauses -- Latin uses the future or the future perfect indicative. I haven't lost any sleep over it -- it's not a hurricane or the economy, but I wonder if anyone has written on this or come up with any theories-- Carl?
My theory -- τίς ἃν εἰκάσειεν; -- Greek has a secret ingredient whereof Latin has no inkling: the particle ἂν indefinitizes (is that a word?) the specific and subjunctivizes (is that a word?) the secondary indicative tenses (imperfect & aorist): ἐφίλουν ἄν = amarem; ἐφίλησα ἀν = ama(vi)ssem. No? I didn't think you'd like the theory :D

Re: Time in the conditional clause

Posted: September 3rd, 2011, 4:55 pm
by Mark Lightman
...this construction is usually called "past contrary to fact."
The best example of a past contrary to fact condition in English is the old Three Stooges joke:

ATTRACTIVE YOUNG LADY: "Strange men are following me!"
SHEMP: "They'd be strange if they didn't."

:lol: