Αυτός

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
Scott Lawson
Posts: 450
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 6:36 pm

Αυτός

Post by Scott Lawson »

Psalm 101(102): 28 (27)
Ψαλμι ΡΑ: 28:
"But you are the same,..."
"Συ δε ο αυτός ει,..."

The pronoun αυτός is used three ways: (See Smyth 1204)
1.) As an intensive adjective pronoun it means "self" (ipse).
2.) As an adjective pronoun when preceded by the article it means "same" (idem).
3.) In oblique cases as the personal pronoun of the third person...him, her, it, them.

In usages 1 & 3 αυτός is an intensive marker, setting an item off from everything else through emphasis and contrast. (See BDAG αυτός)

In the verse in question #2 applies. Is it used in the same way as 1 & 3 regarding contrast and emphasis?
In the second usage does "same" equal "unchanging"? Is God's sameness being contrasted with the changing of the "works of his hands" the heavens which will pass away? Or is there something else that is being brought into focus by ο αυτός?
Scott Lawson
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Αυτός

Post by Stephen Hughes »

You could try looking at commentaries on Hebrews 1:12 where that verse is quoted to see what sense the ὁ αὐτός is used in in the psalm.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Αυτός

Post by David Lim »

Scott Lawson wrote:Psalm 101(102): 28 (27)
Ψαλμι ΡΑ: 28:
"But you are the same,..."
"Συ δε ο αυτός ει,..."

The pronoun αυτός is used three ways: (See Smyth 1204)
1.) As an intensive adjective pronoun it means "self" (ipse).
2.) As an adjective pronoun when preceded by the article it means "same" (idem).
3.) In oblique cases as the personal pronoun of the third person...him, her, it, them.

In usages 1 & 3 αυτός is an intensive marker, setting an item off from everything else through emphasis and contrast. (See BDAG αυτός)

In the verse in question #2 applies. Is it used in the same way as 1 & 3 regarding contrast and emphasis?
In the second usage does "same" equal "unchanging"? Is God's sameness being contrasted with the changing of the "works of his hands" the heavens which will pass away? Or is there something else that is being brought into focus by ο αυτός?
Here's my quick answer... I'm not sure what you mean by contrast and emphasis. "ο αυτος" does not by itself mean "unchanging", but because of the context the phrase means "but you are [always] the same [God]", thus implying that God does not change.
δαυιδ λιμ
Scott Lawson
Posts: 450
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 6:36 pm

Re: Αυτός

Post by Scott Lawson »

David,
My below comments are drawn from a dialog I've been having elsewhere:

In ο ανθρωπος αυτος εστιν, αυτος is used as an adjectival intensive in a predicate position and Mounce (12.9) recommends it be Englished with a reflexive (himself) so this would be, The man himself.

With ο αυτος ανθρωπος, αυτος is of a different category; The identical adjective. According to Mounce (12.11) it is normally in an attributive position (as it is above) but not always. This could be Englished as The same man. Αυτος is here anarthrous. In this category I'm wondering if there doesn't seem to be some confusion and conflation with the articular αυτος.

και παλιν απελθων προσηυξατο τον αυτον λογον. - Mark 14:39

Εν αυτη τη ωρα προσηλθαν τινες Φαρισαιοι. - Luke 13:31

It seems to me that definitizing αυτος with the article (ο αυτος) opens it to be used in a predicate position.
Thus:
ο γαρ αυτος κυριος παντων Romans 10:12

Ηη αυτη σαρξ 1 Cor. 15:39

Now back to Συ δε ο αυτος ει.

It may be that definitizing αυτος substantivizes it making it "He" as a title or even creates an idiom so that ο αυτος is a grammatical unit "He".

So it seems to me that it is possible that ο αυτος is in the predicate position in Συ δε ο αυτος ει meaning you are He. Or as attributive it can be seen that the example of ο άνθρωπος ο αυτος εστιν literally means the man; the same (one.) Applying the same to the verse in question would seem to open it the possible interpretation You are the same (one.)

Robertson points out places where it stands alone and the substantive is understood: το αυτο (Matt 5:47), των αυτων Heb 2:14, τα αυτά (Luke 6:23) It seems to me that You are the same (one.) is possible. R. 687

This could then put it outside of the meaning of unchanging/immutable/the same.

ואתה הוא
underpins the Greek and
really is a similar construction. There is no equative verb expressed in Hebrew so it is in ellipsis. It is simply the personal pronoun set in apposition with the intensive pronoun. Some of my friends knowledgeable in Hebrew acknowledge that the intensive Hebrew pronoun can mean "the same" but I wonder if the Hebrew construction truly means You are the same or if it doesn't in fact mean You are He.
I've been referencing the NETS on this verse and note that Albert Pietersma points out the interlinear quality of the Greek in the Psalms and it has me wondering how much the LXX Greek may have influenced the Hebrew lexicon. What I mean is, did the possible meaning of "the same" become attached to הוא because of the LXX rendering of it as ο αυτος which can mean "the same" and so that became an imputed meaning for it? Or is there independent evidence for the Hebrew 3rd person singular intensive pronoun to mean "the same"?
Scott Lawson
David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Αυτός

Post by David Lim »

Scott Lawson wrote:In ο ανθρωπος αυτος εστιν, αυτος is used as an adjectival intensive in a predicate position and Mounce (12.9) recommends it be Englished with a reflexive (himself) so this would be, The man himself.
I'm afraid I don't get this example. Your English version is not a complete sentence. Either you missed out part of the Greek, in which case I consider "αυτος" to modify "εστιν" adverbially, or it just says "He is the man.", "the man" being the predicate. No?
Scott Lawson wrote:With ο αυτος ανθρωπος, αυτος is of a different category; The identical adjective. According to Mounce (12.11) it is normally in an attributive position (as it is above) but not always. This could be Englished as The same man. Αυτος is here anarthrous. In this category I'm wondering if there doesn't seem to be some confusion and conflation with the articular αυτος.
Neither do I know what confusion you are referring to here. "αυτος" here is adjectivally modifying "ανθρωπος", and appears in the same syntactical constructions as other adjectives, and hence you also see "τη χωρα τη αυτη" (Luke 2:8) and "της επαγγελιας της αυτης" (Heb 11:9). Distribution patterns differ for non-grammatical reasons.
Scott Lawson wrote:και παλιν απελθων προσηυξατο τον αυτον λογον. - Mark 14:39

Εν αυτη τη ωρα προσηλθαν τινες Φαρισαιοι. - Luke 13:31

It seems to me that definitizing αυτος with the article (ο αυτος) opens it to be used in a predicate position.
Thus:
ο γαρ αυτος κυριος παντων Romans 10:12

Ηη αυτη σαρξ 1 Cor. 15:39
By what I said above:
"τον αυτον λογον" = "the same (adj.) word"
"εν αυτη τη ωρα" = "in the hour itself"
"η αυτη σαρξ" = "the same (adj.) flesh"
In Rom 10:12 there is an ellipsis; "ο αυτος [εστιν] κυριος παντων" = "the same (adj.) [one] [is] lord of all"
Scott Lawson wrote:Now back to Συ δε ο αυτος ει.

It may be that definitizing αυτος substantivizes it making it "He" as a title or even creates an idiom so that ο αυτος is a grammatical unit "He".
I think there's no evidence for "ο αυτος" being a title. As for the Hebrew in Psa 102, I'm sure someone who knows Hebrew can answer your questions. :)
δαυιδ λιμ
Scott Lawson
Posts: 450
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 6:36 pm

Re: Αυτός

Post by Scott Lawson »

David Lim wrote:
Scott Lawson wrote:Now back to Συ δε ο αυτος ει.

It may be that definitizing αυτος substantivizes it making it "He" as a title or even creates an idiom so that ο αυτος is a grammatical unit "He".
I think there's no evidence for "ο αυτος" being a title. As for the Hebrew in Psa 102, I'm sure someone who knows Hebrew can answer your questions. :)
This may not be so outside of the realm of possibility for it seems that even the anarthrous αὐτός can mean "the Master" as coming from the lips of a student or a slave. Αὐτὸς ἔφᾶ the Master (Pythagoras) said it [ipse dixit] Diog. Laert. 8. 1. 46. Τίς οὗτος; Αὐτός. Τίς Αὐτός; Σωκράτης. Who's this? The Master. Who's the Master? Socrates. Ar. Nub. 220. (Smyth 1209 d.)
Scott Lawson
cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Αυτός

Post by cwconrad »

Scott Lawson wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Scott Lawson wrote:Now back to Συ δε ο αυτος ει.

It may be that definitizing αυτος substantivizes it making it "He" as a title or even creates an idiom so that ο αυτος is a grammatical unit "He".
I think there's no evidence for "ο αυτος" being a title. As for the Hebrew in Psa 102, I'm sure someone who knows Hebrew can answer your questions. :)
This may not be so outside of the realm of possibility for it seems that even the anarthrous αὐτός can mean "the Master" as coming from the lips of a student or a slave. Αὐτὸς ἔφᾶ the Master (Pythagoras) said it [ipse dixit] Diog. Laert. 8. 1. 46. Τίς οὗτος; Αὐτός. Τίς Αὐτός; Σωκράτης. Who's this? The Master. Who's the Master? Socrates. Ar. Nub. 220. (Smyth 1209 d.)
Surely you jest? To be sure, the word αὐτός is being used in these expressions (αὐτὸς ἔφα/ἔφη -- Doric or Attic, as you prefer) seems to have been a mode of distinguishing the authoritative status of Pythagoras in his Sicilian cult community. Aristophanes in the Clouds is caricaturing the Pythagorean usage by having a disciple use it to refer to Socrates in the Φροντιστήριον, and it has echoed on down in tradition, as in the Gilbert and Sullivan comic operetta, H.M.S. Pinafore, where it is said of the captain, "For he himself hath said it, and it's greatly to his credit, that he is an Englishman ... " It's a bit like John McCain in one of the presidential debates of 2008 referring to Barack Obama as "That One."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Scott Lawson
Posts: 450
Joined: June 9th, 2011, 6:36 pm

Re: Αυτός

Post by Scott Lawson »

I wasn't jesting because it didn't seem that Smyth viewed it as such. It's good to have the history of the use! Thanks so much!
Scott Lawson
Paul-Nitz
Posts: 497
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am
Location: Sussex, Wisconsin

Re: Αυτός

Post by Paul-Nitz »

αὐτός is an elusive word for me. These thoughts are my "questions" to B-Greek about αὐτός.


Any use of any pronoun, if it is in the Nominative, is “marking “ something.
  • εσθίεις τὸν ἄρτον = unmarked.
    εσθίεις συ τὸν ἄρτον = emphasizes the subject.
But how do we say “HE is eating” in the same way as we say “YOU are eating”? In other words, what is the 3rd person Nominative personal pronoun equivalent of εγω, συ, ημεις, υμεις?

According to my understanding of the grammarians, that would be οὗτος (& οὗτοι, αὗτη, αὗται, τοῦτο, ταῦτα). Some grammars would also include ὁ δὲ (& ἡ δέ, τὸ δέ, etc.) as 3rd Person Nominative stand-ins.

The way I see it, there's a identifiable reason for this. The six Nominative forms of αὐτός (singular, plural, x 3 genders) are reserved for an particular “self” emphasizing function that is a different sort of emphasis than simply adding personal pronouns εγω, συ, ημεις, υμεις.

If we would use αὐτός (or, αὐτή, αὐτό, αὐτοί, αὐταί, αὐτά) as a normal 3rd Person Nominative Personal Pronoun (as an equivalent of εγω, συ, ημεις, υμεις), we would be communicating a special marking that wouldn't be carried by the other personal pronouns. For example, even when αὐτός is used alone, it often has an implicit noun that it is marking as “self” emphasized.
  • We love because αὐτὸς (supply ὁ θεός) first loved us. 1 John 4:19
It would also create confusion because we can add αυτος to the other personal pronouns if we want to add the “self” emphasis.
  • αὐτός ἐγώ... I myself am a slave to God’s law (Rom 7:25).
If αὐτός (Nominative only) is a special “self” emphasizer, then adding it to εγω makes sense. Otherwise, we would look at it and say, Huh??? αὐτός ἐγώ... He I…. ???

This “self” emphasizing effect of αὐτός (and other Nominative forms of it) is shown by a connecting αὐτός to a noun in what's called the Predicate position. Or, it can be found alone with an implicit noun (I suppose, still a predicate position in contrast to an attributive).
  • αὐτός ὁ πατήρ τρέφει τὰ τέκνα. The father himself feeds his children.
    αὐτός τρέφει τὰ τέκνα. He himself (supply “the father”) feeds his children.
The Attributive position is an entirely different story.

The attributive postion (article/noun sandwich) is very clear and identifiable. When you see any form of αὐτός (ANY CASE) in the attributive / sandwich position, then it signifies a “same” identifying emphasis.
  • ὁ αὐτός πατήρ τρέφει τὰ τέκνα - The same father feeds his children. We had maybe been talking about different fathers. But now you want to emphasize that this same father we just mentioned is the one who feeds his children - ὁ αὐτός πατήρ!!!

Note, αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ & αὐτόν (and variations for number and gender) can be also used as “same” indentifying emphasizers if in the Attributive/sandwich position.
  • ἔδωκεν οὗτος τὸν κάλαμον τῷ αὐτῷ ἀνδρί.
    He gave the pen to the same man
But, if αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ & αὐτόν (and variations for number and gender) are not connected in a sandwich construction, if they are ALONE then they are plain personal pronouns that carry NO EMPHASIS. They are just like μου μοι με σου σοι σε ημων ημιν ημας υμων υμιν υμας.

Unlike the Nominative pronouns, these personal pronouns are needed. The word βλέπομεν contains the pronoun “we.” Adding ἡμεῖς βλέπομεν emphasizes the pronoun. But adding βλέπομεν αὐτούς does not add any emphasis. It simply supplies the information. Whom did we see? αὐτόυς. Whose book did you take? ἐλαβόν αὐτοῦ βιβλίον. To whom did you give the pen? ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ τὸν κάλὸμον.

τί δοκεῖ σοι;
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
Paul-Nitz
Posts: 497
Joined: June 1st, 2011, 4:19 am
Location: Sussex, Wisconsin

Re: Αυτός

Post by Paul-Nitz »

Let me highlight one particular question regarding αυτος.

Should αὐτός, αὐτή, αὐτό be used in the Nominative as a 3rd Person equivalent of εγω, συ???


  • Except for the person change, are the two following examples equivalent?

    • ἐσθίεις συ τὸν ἄρτον.
      ἐσθίει αὐτός τὸν ἄρτον.


    My study has led me to answer, NO. αὐτός Nominatives indicate something that 1st & 2nd personal pronouns do not. The closest equivalent to a 3rd person pronoun is οὗτος.

    • ἐσθίει οὗτος τὸν ἄρτον.
For those of us who are trying to speak Koine, this is a very practical question. I have begun to use the following forms as if they were the 3rd person equivalents to εγω, συ, ημεις, υμεις. See my explanation in previous post. [/size]

  • οὗτος____αὕτη____τοῦτο____οὗτοι_____αὕται_____ταῦτα

    αὐτοῦ____αὐτῆς_____αὐτοῦ____αὐτῶν_____αὐτῶν_____αὐτῶν
    αὐτῷ_____αὐτῇ______αὐτῷ_____αὐτοῖς_____αὐταίς_____αὐτοῖς
    αὐτόν_____αὐτήν______αὐτό_____αὐτούς_____αὐτάς______αὐτά
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
Post Reply

Return to “Word Meanings”