Κύριος

Semantic Range, Lexicography, and other approaches to word meaning - in general, or for particular words.
Scott Lawson
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Κύριος

Post by Scott Lawson » January 7th, 2014, 6:26 pm

BDAG under κύριος II (2) (b) says: "of transcendent beings - α as a designation of God (for this custom ...s.(ee)...LXX (where it freq. replaces the name Yahweh in the MT) Without the art. like a personal name..."

When we encounter LXX passages in the NT that have κύριος as a replacement for Yahweh in the MT what connotation should be given to κύριος?
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Scott Lawson

David Lim
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Re: Κύριος

Post by David Lim » January 7th, 2014, 9:28 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:BDAG under κύριος II (2) (b) says: "of transcendent beings - α as a designation of God (for this custom ...s.(ee)...LXX (where it freq. replaces the name Yahweh in the MT) Without the art. like a personal name..."

When we encounter LXX passages in the NT that have κύριος as a replacement for Yahweh in the MT what connotation should be given to κύριος?
Take it with the sense it had in the LXX? After all, it's a quote. :) Beyond that it's essentially about theological interpretation already and doesn't belong on B-Greek.
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Scott Lawson
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Re: Κύριος

Post by Scott Lawson » January 7th, 2014, 9:36 pm

David,
Thank you for your reply but I find it dismissive and unhelpful. I was also given to understand that this topic was welcome as per Jonathan Robie. Have I posed my question improperly?
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Scott Lawson

David Lim
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Re: Κύριος

Post by David Lim » January 7th, 2014, 9:55 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:David,
Thank you for your reply but I find it dismissive and unhelpful. I was also given to understand that this topic was welcome as per Jonathan Robie. Have I posed my question improperly?
Sorry I do think that it is off-limits. Perhaps I'm less welcoming of such kinds of topics than Jonathan, but I've seen enough of such theological arguments both on B-Greek and elsewhere that I don't see any benefit in going repeatedly down these paths. There's plenty that you can search for and read in the archives such as through https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=kuri ... g%2Fbgreek, or on other forums for theology.

The problem is that the meaning of "κυριος" as a Greek word has nothing to do with the name "Yahweh" / "Jehovah" / ... Of course it can be and has been used in many places to refer to all sorts of people and beings, but to ask about further connotations would then necessitate theological reasoning, which is no longer about the Greek.
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Scott Lawson
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Re: Κύριος

Post by Scott Lawson » January 7th, 2014, 10:15 pm

Thank you David for the link to the archives but my question is one of semantic range and usage which is entirely proper for
B-Greek. BDAG comments on the connection of κυριος with Yahweh and my question is a proper one. Respectfully, I submit that it is you, David that are bringing problems of theology into my query not me. I suggest that your unhelpful posts be deleted so that my question can receive proper treatment without the taint of your concerns of where the discussion may head.

Regards,

Scott Lawson
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Scott Lawson

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Κύριος

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 7th, 2014, 10:53 pm

David Lim wrote:the meaning of "κυριος" as a Greek word has nothing to do with the name "Yahweh" / "Jehovah" / ...
The meaning of "κύριος" as a Greek word had nothing to do with the name יהוה (the Tetragrammaton), until "Κύριος" was used to translate it - as a substitute for אֲדֹנָי (Adonai - "Lord") - and then it became
Scott Lawson wrote:one {element} of semantic range and usage
of the Greek word. That happened at the beginning of the Koine period, so throughout the 350 odd years of the Koine period till the NT was written down (and forever since), Scott's question has been relevent.

Considering your objection from the point of view of time, Biblical Greek is Greek of the Koine Period, your consideration of the meaning of κύριος as having nothing to do with the divine Name is anachronous to a discussion of Biblical (LXX + NT) Greek.
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David Lim
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Re: Κύριος

Post by David Lim » January 7th, 2014, 11:11 pm

Well since you both think it's a meaningful query, you're free to go ahead unless a moderator has any concerns. I simply voiced my doubt that it would lead anywhere beyond the obvious fact that "κυριος" in the LXX and in quotations of the LXX was as a substitute for the name of God. You're also free to call what I said an unhelpful taint, but I stand by my reasons.
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Scott Lawson
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Re: Κύριος

Post by Scott Lawson » January 7th, 2014, 11:59 pm

David,

You at first said that κυριος had nothing to do with Yahweh and now in your latest post you indicate that it is obvious that κυριος is a substitute for God's name. Jonathan rightly corrected me for saying that BDAG indicates that it is a substitute when in fact it uses "replacement". Do you in fact see κυριος as a substitute for Yahweh? These latest comments of yours do address the issue of what κυριος connotes when it is found in the NT quotations of the LXX.
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Scott Lawson

David Lim
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Re: Κύριος

Post by David Lim » January 8th, 2014, 6:26 am

Scott Lawson wrote:You at first said that κυριος had nothing to do with Yahweh and now in your latest post you indicate that it is obvious that κυριος is a substitute for God's name. Jonathan rightly corrected me for saying that BDAG indicates that it is a substitute when in fact it uses "replacement". Do you in fact see κυριος as a substitute for Yahweh? These latest comments of yours do address the issue of what κυριος connotes when it is found in the NT quotations of the LXX.
You misunderstood me. I meant that in my understanding of language, the meaning of "κυριος" as a Greek word does not have anything to do with "Yahweh". I never consider contextually implied referents to be part of the intrinsic meaning of a word. Maybe you do, but I don't see why I should, otherwise we might as well include every single entity that "κυριος" has ever been used to refer to, say in well-known writings, and not just in the LXX or NT. I don't really get what's the difference between "substitute" and "replacement", so let me state what I said again in another way: It is well-established that the name "Yahweh" (or whatever its true pronunciation is) was not pronounced in public (for whatever reason), from a certain time onwards until today. In place of that the Hebrew word for "lord" was read out for most places in the Hebrew writings, and the name itself was written without the vowel points. Based on that it is obvious that the use of "κυριος" in the LXX follows the same reasons. It is also clear that such instances are never with the article, even if a grammatically definite referent is expected, which further supports this assertion that "κυριος" in the LXX represents the proper name of God. However, since you initially asked about the use of "κυριος" in the NT, the question can no longer be confined to one concerning language and that is why I was not at all comfortable with it.
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BillMcManigal
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Re: Κύριος

Post by BillMcManigal » January 8th, 2014, 7:02 am

Stephen Hughes: wrote
until "Κύριος" was used to translate it....That happened at the beginning of the Koine period
We must keep in mind that how the Tetragrammaton was read was different than how it was written. There is strong textual evidence that it was not written as "Κύριος" in the LXX (contra Albert Pietersma) for many years. -NT 27-4 pp.380-382 Kilpatrick's review; JBL Kahle The Greek Bible Manuscripts Used by Origen

In addition, in Christianized texts it appears not as "Κύριος" but in abbreviated forms as "nomina sacra." If I remember correctly Porter may have recommend that we copy the MSS as the first written record of them appears, not as "Κύριος" but as nomina sacra.
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