Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

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Stephen Hughes
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Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Luke 15:13 wrote:Καὶ μετ’ οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συναγαγὼν ἅπαντα ὁ νεώτερος υἱὸς ἀπεδήμησεν εἰς χώραν μακράν, καὶ ἐκεῖ διεσκόρπισεν τὴν οὐσίαν αὐτοῦ, ζῶν ἀσώτως.
If the son who left is escribed as the ἄσωτος υἱός. What would the son who stayed be referred to as? σώφρων "sensible"? φείδωλος "frugal" / "sparing"?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Stephen Hughes »

FWTW, In looking for language to speak about this parable of the prodigal son, my third preference for descibing the elder son who stayed to look after the family property is πιστός "faithful" / "trustworthy".
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Luke 15:13 wrote:Καὶ μετ’ οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συναγαγὼν ἅπαντα ὁ νεώτερος υἱὸς ἀπεδήμησεν εἰς χώραν μακράν, καὶ ἐκεῖ διεσκόρπισεν τὴν οὐσίαν αὐτοῦ, ζῶν ἀσώτως.
If the son who left is escribed as the ἄσωτος υἱός. What would the son who stayed be referred to as? σώφρων "sensible"? φείδωλος "frugal" / "sparing"? ... FWIW, In looking for language to speak about this parable of the prodigal son, my third preference for descibing the elder son who stayed to look after the family property is πιστός "faithful" / "trustworthy".
The problem here, it seems to me, is that the elder brother has lots of virtues (would probably make a good church officer?), he's "sober-minded" (yes, σώφρων), "dependable" (yes, πιστός), "hard-working" (ἐργαστικός), "a good citizen" (χρηστός). Perhaps he's looked up to by others in the village, perhaps envied -- in both a good sense and a bad sense. Some might also say that he is "smug" or "boring". It might be worth looking through Theophrastus' Characters for a description of him as a discernible type of figure, as is the younger brother described as ζῶν ἀσώτως. It seems to me, however, that what make it difficult to talk about these figures in Jesus' parables is that we recognize them as "types" not by the nouns and adjectives used to describe them, but rather by the verbal expressions that tell us of their behavior. I remember being taught (FWIW!) that whereas English-speakers make the most of nouns (especially abstract nouns) and adjectives to describe people, ancient Greek preferred to rely more upon verbs to do that. That may be an overgeneralization, but there's something to the notion of paying more attention to what people do than to what they say about themselves or others. Also, it seems that Jesus' parables --- especially the Lucan ones -- frequently call attention to the flaws in the virtuous and the good instincts of bad-behavors.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Stephen Hughes »

In narrative composition yes, I agree there is a difference in idiom between Greek in English, more or less following the style we see in Thucydides, but in descriptive texts - involving abstractions - such as the lists of good and bad characteristics that people have, there are plenty of adjectives.
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

cwconrad wrote: It seems to me, however, that what make it difficult to talk about these figures in Jesus' parables is that we recognize them as "types" not by the nouns and adjectives used to describe them, but rather by the verbal expressions that tell us of their behavior. I remember being taught (FWIW!) that whereas English-speakers make the most of nouns (especially abstract nouns) and adjectives to describe people, ancient Greek preferred to rely more upon verbs to do that. That may be an overgeneralization, but there's something to the notion of paying more attention to what people do than to what they say about themselves or others. Also, it seems that Jesus' parables --- especially the Lucan ones -- frequently call attention to the flaws in the virtuous and the good instincts of bad-behavors.
I do think Carl gets to the heart of it here. Adjectives applied in the early part of the narrative are proven by the flow of the story itself to be flawed. Although the father gets very little ‘ink’ until the latter part of the narrative it turns out that the story is really about him, and both of the sons are cads. The apparent virtues of the elder - “πιστός” … “ἐργαστικός” … “σώφρων” … “χρηστός”… φείδωλος - turn out to be, in him, no virtues at all.

The dynamics of the verbs reveal the younger son coming to recognize his need for the father, and the older son to be loveless and unforgiving. But there are no adjectives in the narrative to tell you that exactly, and that I thnk is the power of the narrative. The revelation of true character is revealed through the verbs, similar to Matt 21:28ff. The unwritten adjectives which the climax of the parable leaves you with for the brothers are μετανοῶν and ἀνέλεος / μὴ ἔχων ἀγάπην
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:In narrative composition yes, I agree there is a difference in idiom between Greek in English, more or less following the style we see in Thucydides, but in descriptive texts - involving abstractions - such as the lists of good and bad characteristics that people have, there are plenty of adjectives.
What descriptive texts have you in mind? I haven't looked or thought about Longinus. I mentioned Theophrastus, and it occurs to me that Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics develops lists of virtuous behavior and corresponding excessive and deficient terms, but it's not clear to me what works you're thinking of. I confess that I have not at all looked at Greek patristic discussions of Biblical texts, but that might be a resource. One exception worth mentioning: 1 Cor 13 offers a number of adjectival descriptions of ἀγαπή, although it works much of its descriptive analysis through 3rd-person singular verbs.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by cwconrad »

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
cwconrad wrote: It seems to me, however, that what make it difficult to talk about these figures in Jesus' parables is that we recognize them as "types" not by the nouns and adjectives used to describe them, but rather by the verbal expressions that tell us of their behavior. I remember being taught (FWIW!) that whereas English-speakers make the most of nouns (especially abstract nouns) and adjectives to describe people, ancient Greek preferred to rely more upon verbs to do that. That may be an overgeneralization, but there's something to the notion of paying more attention to what people do than to what they say about themselves or others. Also, it seems that Jesus' parables --- especially the Lucan ones -- frequently call attention to the flaws in the virtuous and the good instincts of bad-behavors.
... both of the sons are cads. The apparent virtues of the elder - “πιστός” … “ἐργαστικός” … “σώφρων” … “χρηστός”… φείδωλος - turn out to be, in him, no virtues at all.

The dynamics of the verbs reveal the younger son coming to recognize his need for the father, and the older son to be loveless and unforgiving. But there are no adjectives in the narrative to tell you that exactly, and that I thnk is the power of the narrative. The revelation of true character is revealed through the verbs, similar to Matt 21:28ff. The unwritten adjectives which the climax of the parable leaves you with for the brothers are μετανοῶν and ἀνέλεος / μὴ ἔχων ἀγάπην
While I'll readily agree with the last paragraph, I don't think it's quite fair to refer to both the younger and older sons as "cads"; I'd prefer to say that they are, like most of us, flawed human beings who may be well-enough endowed with what are generally understood as virtues -- but something of fundamental importance is lacking, namely ἀγάπην ἔχειν, as is so neatly expressed in 1 Cor 13:1-4
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον. καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω προφητείαν καὶ εἰδῶ τὰ μυστήρια πάντα καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γνῶσιν καὶ ἐὰν ἔχω πᾶσαν τὴν πίστιν ὥστε ὄρη μεθιστάναι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐθέν εἰμι. κἂν ψωμίσω πάντα τὰ ὑπάρχοντά μου καὶ ἐὰν παραδῶ τὸ σῶμά μου ἵνα καυχήσωμαι, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, οὐδὲν ὠφελοῦμαι.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

cwconrad wrote:I don't think it's quite fair to refer to both the younger and older sons as "cads"; I'd prefer to say that they are, like most of us, flawed human beings ...
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Luke 15:13 wrote:Καὶ μετ’ οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συναγαγὼν ἅπαντα ὁ νεώτερος υἱὸς ἀπεδήμησεν εἰς χώραν μακράν, καὶ ἐκεῖ διεσκόρπισεν τὴν οὐσίαν αὐτοῦ, ζῶν ἀσώτως.
If the son who left is escribed as the ἄσωτος υἱός. What would the son who stayed be referred to as? σώφρων "sensible"? φείδωλος "frugal" / "sparing"?
It would be nice if we had an actual collocational dictionary for ancient Greek. It could answer these kind of questions.
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Re: Luke 15:13 etc. ἄσωτος υἱός and ???? υἱός

Post by Louis L Sorenson »

Carl wrote:
.. whereas English-speakers make the most of nouns (especially abstract nouns) and adjectives to describe people, ancient Greek preferred to rely more upon verbs to do that.
Take a look at John Donovan's Advanced Theory of Greek Composition, (2 vols.) Oxford, 1921. It can be found on Google books. It has lots of suggestions with numerous examples which I think could help flush out the differences between Greek and English.

https://www.google.com/search?q=john+do ... =bks&tbo=1
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