προς - Acts 27:34

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David Lim
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προς - Acts 27:34

Post by David Lim » December 24th, 2011, 12:05 pm

[Acts 27] [34] διο παρακαλω υμας προσλαβειν τροφης τουτο γαρ προς της υμετερας σωτηριας υπαρχει ουδενος γαρ υμων θριξ εκ της κεφαλης πεσειται
This is the only instance of "προς" used with a genitive that I found in the new testament, but I am not sure what it means here. Does it fall under the category A.IV in LSJ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon), and does it mean "for this is to do with your salvation"?
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on December 24th, 2011, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: correct citation
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 25th, 2011, 8:23 am

David Lim wrote:
[Acts 27] [34] διο παρακαλω υμας προσλαβειν τροφης τουτο γαρ προς της υμετερας σωτηριας υπαρχει ουδενος γαρ υμων θριξ εκ της κεφαλης πεσειται
This is the only instance of "προς" used with a genitive that I found in the new testament, but I am not sure what it means here. Does it fall under the category A.IV in LSJ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon), and does it mean "for this is to do with your salvation"?
Yes, but Paul certainly does not mean salvation in the spiritual sense, but in surviving long enough to make it to shore after the shipwreck. It is stronger than simply "have to do with," but picking up on LSJ A.IV, "agreeable to," or "in conformity with." Without researching it, it strikes me that if this is not an Atticism, then it might be a stock phrase. "Eat your Wheaties, Joey, it's good for your health!"
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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David Lim
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by David Lim » December 25th, 2011, 7:55 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
David Lim wrote:
[Acts 27] [34] διο παρακαλω υμας προσλαβειν τροφης τουτο γαρ προς της υμετερας σωτηριας υπαρχει ουδενος γαρ υμων θριξ εκ της κεφαλης πεσειται
This is the only instance of "προς" used with a genitive that I found in the new testament, but I am not sure what it means here. Does it fall under the category A.IV in LSJ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon), and does it mean "for this is to do with your salvation"?
Yes, but Paul certainly does not mean salvation in the spiritual sense, but in surviving long enough to make it to shore after the shipwreck. It is stronger than simply "have to do with," but picking up on LSJ A.IV, "agreeable to," or "in conformity with." Without researching it, it strikes me that if this is not an Atticism, then it might be a stock phrase. "Eat your Wheaties, Joey, it's good for your health!"
Yes, I was just using "salvation" as the noun for "save", meaning "your being saved". My question is, why not the accusative, which is often used with a purpose or objective? Is "προς της υμετερας σωτηριας" really an idiom? It did not seem so haha..
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 25th, 2011, 8:20 pm

David Lim wrote:Yes, I was just using "salvation" as the noun for "save", meaning "your being saved". My question is, why not the accusative, which is often used with a purpose or objective? Is "προς της υμετερας σωτηριας" really an idiom? It did not seem so haha..
Do you have BDAG? It has a discussion of what πρός means in the genitive in connection with this verse.

Stephen
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David Lim
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by David Lim » December 25th, 2011, 9:48 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:Yes, I was just using "salvation" as the noun for "save", meaning "your being saved". My question is, why not the accusative, which is often used with a purpose or objective? Is "προς της υμετερας σωτηριας" really an idiom? It did not seem so haha..
Do you have BDAG? It has a discussion of what πρός means in the genitive in connection with this verse.

Stephen
No, I do not have BDAG. And I do not quite understand what LSJ means by "of that which is derivable from". The closest example is "π. ἀγαθοῦ, π. κακοῦ τινί ἐστι or γίγνεται, it is to one's advantage or otherwise, Arist.Mu.397a30, Arr.An.7.16.5, Hld.7.12"; I do not know how to access the first and third references but the second has "μὴ πρὸς ἀγαθοῦ οἱ εἶναι τὴν πάροδον τὴν ἐς Βαβυλῶνα ἐν τῷ τότε". From this and "ου προς της υμετερας δοξης" it seems to mean something like "this is for your salvation" / "this is with your salvation in mind". In my earlier translation, "this is to do with your salvation", I was trying to bring out the relationship more, but as Barry pointed out the original phrase is stronger.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 25th, 2011, 11:50 pm

David Lim wrote:No, I do not have BDAG. And I do not quite understand what LSJ means by "of that which is derivable from". The closest example is "π. ἀγαθοῦ, π. κακοῦ τινί ἐστι or γίγνεται, it is to one's advantage or otherwise, Arist.Mu.397a30, Arr.An.7.16.5, Hld.7.12"; I do not know how to access the first and third references but the second has "μὴ πρὸς ἀγαθοῦ οἱ εἶναι τὴν πάροδον τὴν ἐς Βαβυλῶνα ἐν τῷ τότε". From this and "ου προς της υμετερας δοξης" it seems to mean something like "this is for your salvation" / "this is with your salvation in mind". In my earlier translation, "this is to do with your salvation", I was trying to bring out the relationship more, but as Barry pointed out the original phrase is stronger.
A couple of points:

You should really get a copy of BDAG. It's essential for the level of Greek that you're at. In my experience the primary and secondary literature it cites is really useful for serious work.

For πρός + gen., BDAG defines its sense as "marker of direction or aspect from which someth. is determined, to the advantage of, advantageous of. For Acts 27:34, it offers the translation "in the interest of [our] safety.

If you use the link to LSJ at TLG http://www.tlg.uci.edu/ you should be able to look up every cited reference with a simple click. The Perseus site is older and more famous, but the TLG has a much nicer interface.

Stephen
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David Lim
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by David Lim » December 26th, 2011, 10:24 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:No, I do not have BDAG. And I do not quite understand what LSJ means by "of that which is derivable from". The closest example is "π. ἀγαθοῦ, π. κακοῦ τινί ἐστι or γίγνεται, it is to one's advantage or otherwise, Arist.Mu.397a30, Arr.An.7.16.5, Hld.7.12"; I do not know how to access the first and third references but the second has "μὴ πρὸς ἀγαθοῦ οἱ εἶναι τὴν πάροδον τὴν ἐς Βαβυλῶνα ἐν τῷ τότε". From this and "ου προς της υμετερας δοξης" it seems to mean something like "this is for your salvation" / "this is with your salvation in mind". In my earlier translation, "this is to do with your salvation", I was trying to bring out the relationship more, but as Barry pointed out the original phrase is stronger.
A couple of points:

You should really get a copy of BDAG. It's essential for the level of Greek that you're at. In my experience the primary and secondary literature it cites is really useful for serious work.

For πρός + gen., BDAG defines its sense as "marker of direction or aspect from which someth. is determined, to the advantage of, advantageous of. For Acts 27:34, it offers the translation "in the interest of [our] safety.

If you use the link to LSJ at TLG http://www.tlg.uci.edu/ you should be able to look up every cited reference with a simple click. The Perseus site is older and more famous, but the TLG has a much nicer interface.

Stephen
I see. Hmm.. US$150... Anyway, thanks for the link, but when I tried navigating to LSJ at TLG both "http://www.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/" and "http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/" give the "403 Forbidden" error.

Back to my question, do you mean that perhaps we should split the category A.IV in LSJ into two or more separate ones? I do not see how some of the examples there fit with any connotation of advantage or reason or purpose.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 26th, 2011, 1:33 pm

David Lim wrote:I see. Hmm.. US$150...
Some things are worth the money. BDAG is one of them, though I had gotten it cheaper.

Stephen
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on December 26th, 2011, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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jeffreyrequadt
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Re: προς - Acts 27:34

Post by jeffreyrequadt » December 26th, 2011, 4:03 pm

Although if you were to spend that much money, I would recommend that you get an electronic version, such as is available for Logos (and probably BibleWorks and Accordance). My rule of thumb is to get electronic versions of reference works, but paper copies of anything that I would want to sit down and read at length (not commenting on the length of some reference articles). The search capabilities make electronic versions of reference works far more valuable than their paper counterparts in my not-so-humble opinion. I don't usually care about being able to search "chapter" books.
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Jeffrey T. Requadt
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