Self Taught Living Koine ?

Matt Johnston
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Joined: September 10th, 2011, 1:58 pm

Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Matt Johnston »

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for some practical advice on approaching living koine as a living language. All of my formal training has been in the grammar/translations school (6 years-ish ago I began with Machen). Initially I thought the living koine materials were unnecessary and decided I would build toward some of fluency, or at least more proficiency by reading large swaths of the NT and some of Apostolic Fathers. This was slow going and at times was the source of discouragement. I told myself I just needed to stay at it, which I am sure is partly true. Over the last several months I have seen the benefits of listening to the Hebrew Bible and so decided to give the whole living koine thing a try.

So far I have worked through Buth's Living Koine Introduction Part 1. A few days ago I received Buth's Epictetus materials as well as his recording of the Gospel according to John. I have spent about an hour with the Epictetus material so far (the goal will be a little each day) and am basically getting dominated so far. I think it is mainly the vocabulary that is giving me a hard time. I believe Buth recommends listening to each discourse 50-100 times. As I am only 2 times in I am not totally discouraged. In addition I have listened to/read several chapters of Mark from letsreadgreek.com.

Until I read Daniel Streett's 2010 SBL paper, "Is Biblical Greek Oral-Aural Pedagogy Worthwhile?" the other day I figured I would just use some of Buth's materials and just by listening I would be in a much better boat than trying to grind out reading text. All of the methods he referenced in his paper seemed great: the discussion, the tests, special flash cards etc. Even before I read the paper the concepts of approaching Greek as Greek; thinking in Greek; obtaining some measure of fluency were important and appealing. But, now I am starting to wonder the following...how important is it for me to actually practice communicating in Greek? I am trying to convince my wife that it would be awesome for us to communicate in koine at home (so far she is a little overwhelmed by the geek factor). Where do I go from here? What is the best way forward? I am I right to think if I keep trucking listening to John and Epictetus I am going to get somewhere? What would be a feasible path to fluency for someone who is self taught?

Sorry for the long introduction to a few questions. Please let me know if any further clarity on exactly what I am asking is needed. Any feed back is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt Johnston
Mark Lightman
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 6:30 pm

Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Mark Lightman »

χαῖρε Ματτ. σε ἀσπάζομαι. καλῶς ἦλθες πρὸς τὸν Β-Γρεεκ.

There is only one way to obtain full fluency in any language--immersion. There are two types of immersion--physical immersion and mental immersion. Physical immersion is moving to a place where natives speak the language. You cannot do this for Ancient Greek. That leaves mental immersion.

Mental immersion is adopting the attitude that you are going to do everything you can to SURROUND yourself, CONSTANTLY, with Ancient Greek. This begins with committing one hour a day, every day to reading Greek. One hour a day does not sound like a lot, but it is. This means that if you miss a day, you have to read Greek for two hours the next day. If you miss a day and the next day you only read Greek for 30 minutes, the day after THAT you have to read Greek for 2.5 hours. This level of commitment basically means that almost every thing you read is in Greek. It means you don't watch any television--except for Football. Needless to say, if you are reading Greek every day for one hour a day, it does not matter what Greek you read. Eventually, you will cover just about everything.

Then, mental immersion means you fully commit yourself to listening to as much Greek as possible. You NEVER do any routine activity--watering the plants, washing the dishes, taking a walk, without listening to Greek. If you drive to Cleveland, you listen to Greek the whole time. If you have any songs on your MP3 player, they are all in Greek. You spend a lot of time on You-Tube, but only watching Ancient Greek videos.

Next, it means writing Greek as much as possible. Work through the composition text books. Do English to Greek exercises. But supplement this by writing Greek, every day, to real people. There are several on-line forums where you can write Greek to other people, including Textkit and Schole.ning. The later has a chat room. If you are on Facebook or Twitter, stop doing this in English and instead do it in Greek. Stop texting in English and start texting in Greek. There are down times where you can write Greek easier than you can read it. If you are waiting somewhere for five minutes, you pick up a piece a paper and you write out some Greek. Write out chapter by chapter the Greek NT on notecards. On the other side, write out a literal English translation. Then reproduce the Greek by looking at the English. Check your Greek by flipping the card over. Listen to Buth's and Sorensen's audios as you do this. Listening to audio is much more effective if you have been writing out the Greek, either from memory or from an English paraphrase. This writing and listening does NOT count towards your one hour of reading per day.

Lastly, Mental Immersion means you speak Greek everyday for at least one hour a day. You do this not only because speaking Greek will help with your reading, but also because if you want to obtain full fluency, you have to make use of more down time. You can speak Greek to yourself almost anywhere and at many times through out the day. If you are in an elevator by yourself, you say out loud νῦν καταβαίνω. If there are other people in the elevator, you whisper this. You speak Greek to your kids and your spouse whether they understand it or not. (Daniel Street speaks Greek to his dog.) If a song is playing on the radio, you translate it into Greek and say it out loud. 90% of all the Greek you speak will be to yourself, but you also need to somehow find other people who speak Ancient Greek and talk to them. This is going to be tough. Very few people are learning Ancient Greek, and the vast majority of them have no interest in speaking it, but people are out there. If you can get your wife to learn it, that would be ideal, but she will have to make the same commitment to mental immersion. You can also skype with people in Ancient Greek, but face to face works much better. Sharing audios and videos is the third best option.

Mental Immersion is necessary not because full fluency cannot be obtained only by only reading Greek--it can, if you can spend 8 hours a day reading Greek. But most of us can't. We need to take advantage of the down times, and this means speaking, listening and writing, in addition to reading.

Mental immersion does not involve grammatical analysis or reading about Greek. Mental immersion means that you will be reading, speaking, writing and listening to Greek that is full of mistakes. I think this is one reason why the overwhelming majority of people learning Greek decide not to use it as a living language. I once asked a Greek Prof, after he told me that he had never spoken a word of conversational Ancient Greek to anyone, if he listened to much Greek. He said no, because he could never find any recordings that were any good. This is the typical attitude of most Greek learners. I'm not saying that they are wrong. But just know that if you do commit to mental immersion you will be doing something that most Greek students don't think is a good idea. A few of us will support you, but not many. Latin learners are much more likely to speak and write it. I don't know why.

So, mental immersion is not about method or any particular resources, it's only about two things--commitment and time.
Daniel Streett
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Daniel Streett »

Mark, those are all really good suggestions! Matt, may I suggest that you skim through a book like Barry Farber's How to Learn Any Language and implement some of the suggestions there? Some of them will obviously not apply to Ancient Greek (i.e. there's currently no Koine TV channel, etc), but many will. Many of the tips will be very close to what Mark already talked about.
I would especially urge you to begin reading with an eye to communication. What I mean is, when you are reading, be looking for vocabulary that you can incorporate into your communication (spoken, thought, or written). Start compiling an English to Greek dictionary (mine's at 30 some pages now). Keep a separate section for idioms. For example, today I was looking through some papyri and the phrase ὡς ἄν τάχιστα + a subjunctive verb like λαβης popped up: an idiomatic way of saying, "as soon as . . ." So, that went in the dictionary.
Also, read with an eye to noting patterns or grammatical conventions that would differ from what you find in English. For example, use of ου vs ουδεν to negate things, use of the article, placement of adjectives, etc. I find it much easier to pick up a feel for these inductively (and piecemeal-ly) by reading than to pore over the systematic discussions of Smyth, BDF, Wallace, or Robertson.
Daniel R. Streett
Associate Professor of Greek and New Testament
Criswell College, Dallas, TX
http://danielstreett.wordpress.com
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Daniel Streett wrote:Mark, those are all really good suggestions! Matt, may I suggest that you skim through a book like Barry Farber's How to Learn Any Language and implement some of the suggestions there? Some of them will obviously not apply to Ancient Greek (i.e. there's currently no Koine TV channel, etc), but many will. Many of the tips will be very close to what Mark already talked about.
Farber very much advocates learning just a little of a language, or learning a lot, and emphasizes that even learning a few phrases is a good thing.

Here's an interview with Barry Farber that may be interesting.

I also found this Amazon review helpful:
Mr. Farber outlines a 'multiple track attack' that has you pursuing your target language on several fronts. Here are the tools he wants you to get: a basic grammar text, a dictionary, a phrase book (such as those for tourists), a magazine or paper or simple book written in the target language, language tapes, blank tapes, and flash cards, including homemade ones. First step: Study patiently and well the first five chapters of your grammar. Mark anything you don't quite get; take your question to a native speaker if you can. Second step: You're ready to bring on the other tools. Continue with the grammar text, but now pick up the newspaper (or magazine or book) and read the first paragraph. Highlight the words you don't know, look them up, and make flash cards. You'll review the cards when you're on hold, waiting in line, etc. (Read the English side of the card first and think your way into the target language before you flip it over to confirm your answer.) A couple of days later, perhaps, move to paragraph two. You should now begin cherry-picking your way through the little phrase book and listening to your tapes. (Tip: The highly interactive Pimsleur sets are pricey but excellent; do an Amazon title search for 'Pimsleur' and your target language.) The phrase book will supply you with things that the grammar book won't. Don't just memorize these basic phrases and expressions. Plot a conversation and practice your responses. The tapes, if they're good, allow you to hear and imitate native speakers. By now you should be on chapter seven or eight of the grammar. And you should be looking for people to speak with. One chapter deals with clever mnemonic devices for memorizing new words. Example: I've remembered that 'kar lo' means 'he is cold' in Hebrew by imagining my friend Carlo shivering. The more far-fetched, the better, probably. All this seems to make good sense. Why limit yourself to one approach when you can more nearly approximate the total immersion method by drawing on a wealth of resources at hand?
The first part of this is fairly conventional. I wonder which grammars might be best suited to this kind of use?

Listening to audio tapes is unusual for most learning biblical Greek, we're beginning to get good resources here, some freely available. I'd love to see something like Louis' recordings of Mark for the entire New Testament, freely available. Or at least the entire Gospel of Mark. I'd like to see that in modern pronunciation too - any of you native speakers up to the task?

These are the two things that are very different from traditional instruction:
Don't just memorize these basic phrases and expressions. Plot a conversation and practice your responses.
And you should be looking for people to speak with.
I'd be interested in hearing how people move from New Testament texts to conversations in Koine Greek. Any of you teachers want to give some examples of how you go about it?

Or suppose you are working on composition, how do you start with existing texts and move to your own writing?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine-NT Audio-Free, Modern Accent?

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

χαιρετε οι κοινονοι!

Jonathan asked,
I'd love to see something like Louis' recordings of Mark for the entire New Testament, freely available. Or at least the entire Gospel of Mark. I'd like to see that in modern pronunciation too - any of you native speakers up to the task?
The entire NT (Westcott and Hort text) has been recorded in a (mostly) Modern Greek accent by John Simon, available at http://www.greeklatinaudio.com. The last recordings, to finish the Greek part (they also have the Latin Vulgate NT and are working on audio of the Hebrew OT) were completed in October 2008. You can either download individual chapters for free or can buy a DVD with the entire NT as MP3 files (1 chapter per file). John Simon, who did the recordings, is not a native speaker, but from what I've read about current Greek pronounciation his accent is very good. I haven't checked this in detail but from what I can tell, it seems the main difference is that he pronounces chi as /k/ instead of the German-like ich/ach sound used by natives. According to Louis Sorensen, Simon used Modern as a starting point and modified it somewhat in the direction of ancient Koine, cf. Randall Buth. (See below for a link to Louis' reviews of this and other Greek NT audio.)

I ordered the DVD a while back and have used it some (I want to spend more time with it) and found it to be very helpful, very fluid and natural-sounding, despite being trained with the Erasmian accent. After listening to him, I decided to change from the Erasmian to modern accent and haven't regretted it one bit. After I started listening, I began using this approach when I read the Greek Bible aloud at home and in worship and Bible class (very softly in the latter situations :) ). Every now and then my Erasmian slips back in, but it's mostly gone now, after only working with the new accent for a year.

Several years ago, I think perhaps in the 1980's, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, who was a native speaker born on Cyprus to Greek parents, recorded the entire Greek NT from the Textus Receptus using the modern Greek accent. Later on, I just learned, he did one using the Nestle-Aland text. His recordings aren't free though. They're available on Amazon and elsewhere.

Louis Sorenson has reviews of both Simon and Zodhiates' audio, as well as the audio of several others, here: http://www.letsreadgreek.com/resources/greekntaudio.htm

Devenios Doulenios
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Devenios Doulenios
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?-Living Approach: Ναι (Yes)!

Post by Devenios Doulenios »

Mark Lightman εγραψε,
Mental immersion means that you will be reading, speaking, writing and listening to Greek that is full of mistakes. I think this is one reason why the overwhelming majority of people learning Greek decide not to use it as a living language. I once asked a Greek Prof, after he told me that he had never spoken a word of conversational Ancient Greek to anyone, if he listened to much Greek. He said no, because he could never find any recordings that were any good. This is the typical attitude of most Greek learners. I'm not saying that they are wrong. But just know that if you do commit to mental immersion you will be doing something that most Greek students don't think is a good idea. A few of us will support you, but not many. Latin learners are much more likely to speak and write it. I don't know why.
About making mistakes as a reason for not using Greek as living language: this is the same reason--actually, excuse-- why many adults, at least in America, choose not to attempt to learn modern foreign languages. I expect this excuse is used in other countries also. The truth of the matter is—and I speak from experience of learning four modern languages, French, Spanish, German, and Portuguese—is that if you try to communicate at all in a foreign language you are going to make mistakes. But my experience tells me that if you persist in trying, and correcting your mistakes as you go, you will improve. Those who are natives and non-natives who are fluent and use the language well usually will tolerate your mistakes and try to help you improve, if you are humble and sincere in your effort.

I agree whole-heartedly with Mark, Randall Buth, and others who say that attempting to speak and write Greek, as well as reading it, will help you learn Greek better, to really learn it, not just learn about it. That is not to say you can't acquire a good reading knowledge of the NT with traditional methods. Until recently I used the traditional methods, and was taught that way. Despite that, I can read most of the NT without having to check a lexicon for meaning, though I don't always remember and recognize verb and participle forms without doing some checking and review. But I believe now I can improve by incorporating the living language methods. And you have to work harder and put in a lot more time to acquire reading fluency the traditional way. Having also been a Spanish, French, and Latin teacher, I can say with confidence that the communicative model is the way to go. I didn't get to use as much living language material in Latin as I would have liked, but what was used really motivated those who wanted to learn. And they remembered it better too.

I wish now I had had Greek teachers who used the living language approach. If I get to teach Greek sometime, I will absolutely use that approach. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying using bits of it for Greek, Hebrew, and Latin as I learn more on my own. Ancient Greek is only a dead language if we make it that way. It doesn't have to be. Apparently somebody thinks there is a market for Harry Potter books in Attic, for instance. And some of them are now in Latin. You can now also read news stories from today's headlines in Attic Greek online at Akropolis [sic] World News, [url][http://www.akwn.net//url]. And with people like Mark Lightman doing YouTube videos in Koine, and people writing blog posts and forum comments and emails in Koine, as people are doing on ΣΧΟΛΗ, Textkit, and elsewhere, it is fair to say that Koine is not so dead a language as some think. Not to mention the immersion fluency workshops that Buth and others conduct and promote. As I often quoted to my Latin students, "Latin isn't dead--It's eternal!" Happily, we can say this about Ancient Greek now too. And act accordingly, if we have the courage and commitment. Τι φρωνειτε;

Devenios Doulenios
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος
Dewayne Dulaney
Δεβένιος Δουλένιος

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

"Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου."--Διδαχή Α, α'
Daniel Streett
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine-NT Audio-Free, Modern Accent?

Post by Daniel Streett »

Devenios Doulenios wrote:Several years ago, I think perhaps in the 1980's, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, who was a native speaker born on Cyprus to Greek parents, recorded the entire Greek NT from the Textus Receptus using the modern Greek accent. Later on, I just learned, he did one using the Nestle-Aland text. His recordings aren't free though. They're available on Amazon and elsewhere.
I have the Zodhiates CDs and love them. He goes at a perfect pace, and at some points virtually sings the text. I just noticed today that Amazon now has them on an mp3 cd for $14.99. At that price, everyone should own it!
Daniel R. Streett
Associate Professor of Greek and New Testament
Criswell College, Dallas, TX
http://danielstreett.wordpress.com
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine-NT Audio-Free, Modern Accent?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Daniel Streett wrote:
Devenios Doulenios wrote:Several years ago, I think perhaps in the 1980's, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, who was a native speaker born on Cyprus to Greek parents, recorded the entire Greek NT from the Textus Receptus using the modern Greek accent. Later on, I just learned, he did one using the Nestle-Aland text. His recordings aren't free though. They're available on Amazon and elsewhere.
I have the Zodhiates CDs and love them. He goes at a perfect pace, and at some points virtually sings the text. I just noticed today that Amazon now has them on an mp3 cd for $14.99. At that price, everyone should own it!
Here's Zodhiates reading Mark 2. I actually bought these on cassette tapes a zillion years ago, and I do like them. The tapes were more expensive back then. I agree - this price is no longer a barrier.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Mark Lightman wrote:You spend a lot of time on You-Tube, but only watching Ancient Greek videos.
What's available on youtube? Any suggestions?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Mark Lightman
Posts: 300
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 6:30 pm

Re: Self Taught Living Koine ?

Post by Mark Lightman »

Jonathan asked What's available on youtube? Any suggestions?
Yes, check out my You-Tube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Markos33AD?feature=mhee

Under favorites I think I have included virtually every CONVERSATIONAL (as opposed to just reading ancient texts) Ancient Greek video out there, but more are being made and added every day.
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