Mark Illustrated with Greek

Textbooks, Graded Readers, Beginner Resources and links, Teaching aids, etc.
fredrick.long
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by fredrick.long » November 29th, 2016, 10:35 am

Thanks Stephen, Eile, and Emma.

I think Mark Illustrated accomplishes much, and we at GlossaHouse are happy with it, knowing that it is not perfect. However, if we are able to improve it, especially where the drawing/setting doesn't match as well as it should the content, then I am happy to do it. I am finishing typesetting these illustrations of Mark in Latin, and we are producing more in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. John Illustrated is next. We also knew that there would be anachronisms. However, we approached several illustrators about our vision to produce innovative Greek resources.

If you have an interest in developing any such innovative project, consider working with GH. We are just getting started.

Stephen, I would not feel comfortable reposting your (many) criticisms of Mark Illustrated in this public forum, as I think you would understand. However, I would be glad to set up a Google Doc and share it with you as the repository. Also, there will be limits to what can be changed. But, in this instance, the lack of a proper night setting of what you pointed out should be changed. (On the other hand, it could be maintained that the illustration reflects what was happening earlier in the evening before the sun set and "everyone" was there--but, then still the image does not match the description.)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 29th, 2016, 11:18 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:if you want to keep the basic structure intact.
I was thinking about this too. Just how much of the text is illustrated, and just how much of the illustration is derived from the text are interesting questions. I'm a 70:30 person, so so long as most of the text is covered that is okay. If there is too much to express in one picture, then it would be better to divide one thing between two scenes.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 29th, 2016, 5:48 pm

Request: can we turn this into a positive discussion of what makes effective comic strips, with examples that illustrate what works well? When we get a new guest who is doing interesting things, let's be welcoming and encouraging, focusing on what is positive.

One of the posts mentioned this comic from Daniel Streett:

Image

What makes this comic effective? Are there other examples that show particularly useful techniques?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » November 29th, 2016, 7:07 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote: What makes this comic effective? Are there other examples that show particularly useful techniques?
You could remove the text and still see the story.

The character arouses sympathy immediately, something which wouldn't happen so easily if the artwork were realistic-looking. It's easy to create certain details and leave off others in this style, there's no need for detailed historical accuracy.

There's not too much text in one bubble - very important for didactic purposes.

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 30th, 2016, 4:45 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Request: can we turn this into a positive discussion of what makes effective comic strips, with examples that illustrate what works well? When we get a new guest who is doing interesting things, let's be welcoming and encouraging, focusing on what is positive.
I am very happy to see that the world of New Testament Greek studies is beginning to embrace multimodal literacy, and that this multiliterate work has been produced, and that another one for the Gospel of John is in production. It is also great that other ideas about how to integrate visual and print literacies are being discussed and investigated, both from within our own cultural milieu and as acurately as possible within the cultural setting of 1st century Palestine.

I am happy to give my suggestions, criticisms and evaluative comments about any efforts that are brought to the forum's notice, in the hope that this new and emerging field will continue to grow, and to improve in respect of its readability, reliability, accuracy, and coverage of New Testament narrative texts.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by cwconrad » November 30th, 2016, 11:21 am

This is probably so obvious that it's not worth noting, but I'll state it anyway. I don't think that what graphic illustration of any literary text does is different essentially from what translating it into another language or setting it to music or even reformulating it into a new literary text does: it constitutes a new artistic creation that must be judged on its own. In a sense -- if those critics are right who think that the gospels of Matthew and Luke incorporate the gospel of Mark -- it's comparable to those gospels. Matthew and Luke are comparable to Mark but not by any means identical. One may argue over the relative merits of a translation or of a musical setting of the passion narrative of Matthew or Luke or John, but whether they are esteemed or panned, they are interpretative as are commentaries and translations, and they are no more definitive than any other alternative representation of the original work. I repeat that this is perhaps obvious, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is turning around the question of whether this work is "true" to Mark's gospel.

My 2c.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 30th, 2016, 4:37 pm

cwconrad wrote:I repeat that this is perhaps obvious, but it seems to me that some of the discussion is turning around the question of whether this work is "true" to Mark's gospel.
To me, it's a little more like asking what kind of music most effectively conveys the words of a hymn. Pictures don't interfere linguistically with the text the way that an English translation does, and it's good to have pictures that reinforce the words, reducing the need for lexicons and grammars so that people can get experience just using the language.

We don't use cartoons in γραφὴ ζώσα, but we use pictures extensively. So if we want to teach Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης, when we get to ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης, we use an image like this:

Image

This is not authentic in any sense, John probably did not wear name tags, but it teaches the content efficiently even in a very early lesson with new beginners. You want images to capture interest and draw attention to what the words are saying.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 30th, 2016, 4:49 pm

freebibleimages.org has multiple sets of free Bible images - some truly free, others not - for a bunch of stories. Here are three images that could be used to illustrate the same sentence from Jonah: Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν. Do any of these do a better job of supporting the words than others?

I find this one kind of boring, with no sense of motion, you do not see the action in progress and there's no real expression to grab you:
Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν.

Image
This one is sillier, maybe a little too silly, and the whale looks like a fish, but would work better for me in a classroom setting - it definitely has that sense of motion:
Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν.

Image
This one looks more like a whale, but also looks rather preschool:
Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν.

Image
So I think a lot of this is not about how you interpret the text of Jonah, but what you want the image to do in order to support the words. And you can optimize for different things, for different purposes and audiences. For the group I'm teaching now, I might like this image:
Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν.

Image
This one is less amusing and compelling. It might be more "realistic", but I'm not sure how you realistically depict a κῆτος in any image.
Καὶ προσέταξε Κύριος τῷ κήτει, καὶ ἐξέβαλε τὸν ᾿Ιωνᾶν ἐπὶ τὴν ξηράν.

Image
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 30th, 2016, 8:16 pm

Can we give (informed) balanced evaluations? Or do just want positive statements? For some people positive only statement are interpreted as insincere.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on November 30th, 2016, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Mark Illustrated with Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 30th, 2016, 8:37 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:One of the posts mentioned this comic from Daniel Streett:

Image
Here is some accentuation to be able to read Streett's comic aloud:
Ἰωνᾶς, Ἀμαθί, Νινευή, Θαρσίς (indec. or -ίδος, f.), Ἰόππη. (Joppa would have been guessed correctly from English).
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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