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Posted: December 24th, 2012, 6:43 am
by Paul-Nitz
Project Proposal:

Creating a Koine book of phrases as a resource for a communicative approach to learning.

Contributors could help in the following ways:
  • General: Helping to define the purpose and scope of the book.
    Editing: Cleaning up the formatting or tags in the phrasebook file.
    Researching: Adding phrases from other online sources, such as Sprechen Sie Attisch
    Researching: Looking into primers or other books for good phrases.
    Reviewing: Checking over the list for mistakes, natural usage, clarifications.
    One time contribution: Add phrases you use in communicative teaching / learning.
    Ongoing contribution: Adding phrases that fit the purpose of the book as you encounter them in reading.
The beginnings of a phrasebook and directions for editing it can be found here ... zlJSmN6T1k

If we can get at least 5 contributors by 1 Feb 2012, I will consider the project a "go."
Respond to this post if you are interested.

If we get at least 5, then we would use this same discussion thread to define the purpose and scope of the phrasebook, the deadline for completion, and perhaps assign duties.

PD Nitz – Σαῦλος

Several B-Greek discussion threads have touched on, or directly discussed a phrasebook.

The most relevant was Barry Hofstetter’s post from October 2011* in which he said,

  • “In Latin I have a bunch of common classroom statements/questions that I force the students to use, but not so much for Greek…. There's a lot of support for this type of thing for Latin, but practically nothing for Greek. “

* Barry’s post ... phrasebook
Other B-Greek posts about a phrasebook. ... 53743.html Nigel Chapman “I’m trying to translate fsom ‘conversational English’ books into Koine.” ... 54539.html The beginnings of Sprechen Sie Attisch ... =16&t=1615 Basic conversational Greek needed. ... book#p3564 An interesting comment on register and phrasing by Buth). ... book#p3453 Jason Hare – we need a phrasebook. ... ries#p2783 Koine pleasantries ... book#p2583 Devenios Doulenios “I’ll be making som vocab lists for modern everyday objects”


Posted: December 29th, 2012, 5:17 am
by Paul-Nitz
The Σχολη site would be a natural place for this list to reside, if they are willing. They already have some phrases collected and a discussion had taken place.

I've taken the list off of Google drive (had problems) and made it a shared Excel file in Dropbox ... ebook.xlsx

Does anyone have some directions as to how to check usage?
For example, let's say I'm trying to figure out what word or phrase to use for "Do you understand?" in the context of a lesson?
I've been using συνιημι --> συνηκας; συνήκατε;
I've also seen καταλαμβανω --> κατελαβες, κατελαβετε

Until another 10 years go by and I develop the sprachgefuhl, I am stuck using some digital research tools. If I search for συνῆκας I can make the Tufts hopperizer give me some hits on the where the lemma συνιημι is used. ... 9&la=greek

I can tell me Logos program to search the LXX, GNT, and Perseus collection for the exact word συνῆκας.

But, neither method is easy and very helpful thing for me. First, I cannot just read Greek off the page from the hits I get. I don't know if there's an easy way to see a translation. That would help. Secondly, I really don't know where this Greek is from. If I get a hit from Euthyphro, that tells me naught all (without spending more time than I have researching who this Greek dude is). Is this 7th Century BC Greek or 1st Century? Is there a list of Koine Greek collections so that I could narrow my search and only see Koine hits?


Posted: January 1st, 2013, 5:40 am
by Paul-Nitz

If you ask "What is this?" should you match gender in the response?

τί εστιν τουτο; What (neuter) is this (neuter)?
οὕτος εστιν καρπόν. This (masculine) is a fruit (masculine).

I figured that was correct. Matching the antecedent would certainly be right in Bantu languages.

But then a month ago, I was playing the "Where are Your Keys" language learning game and picking up a little German from a friend, I asked "Was ist das?" My German friend replied, "Das ist eine frucht." I said, "Shouldn't it be 'deine ist eine frucht?'" Nope. Das. A neuter demonstrative pronoun with a feminine antecedent. Hmm. So what about Greek?

How do you search for this sort of usage with Perseus or Logos or other means? I don't know of a way.

This is the sort of thing that could answered quickly by checking in a KOINE PHRASEBOOK.


Posted: January 1st, 2013, 7:28 am
by Ken M. Penner
Consider Ex 16:15 εἶπαν ἕτερος τῷ ἑτέρῳ Τί ἐστιν τοῦτο; οὐ γὰρ ᾔδεισαν, τί ἦν. εἶπεν δὲ Μωυσῆς πρὸς αὐτούς Οὗτος ὁ ἄρτος,


Posted: January 1st, 2013, 8:37 am
by Ken M. Penner
I'm not sure these are exactly relevant, but for consideration:

Gender mismatches:
Δάκτυλος θεοῦ ἐστιν τοῦτο (Ex 8:19)
οὐκ ἔστιν τοῦτο ἀλλʼ ἢ οἶκος θεοῦ (Gen 28:17)
τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡ εὐλογία (Is 27:9)

Gender agreements:
καὶ ἀφεῖλεν κύριος ἀπὸ Ισραηλ κεφαλὴν καὶ οὐράν, μέγαν καὶ μικρὸν ἐν μιᾷ ἡμέρᾳ, πρεσβύτην καὶ τοὺς τὰ πρόσωπα θαυμάζοντας( αὕτη ἡ ἀρχή) καὶ προφήτην διδάσκοντα ἄνομα( οὗτος ἡ οὐρά) (Is 9:13–14).
οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ παρὰ τὴν ὁδὸν σπαρείς (Mt 13:19)
οὗτος ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερός ἐστιν, ἡ λίμνη τοῦ πυρός (Re 20:14).


Posted: January 2nd, 2013, 8:13 am
by Paul-Nitz
χαριν εχω Κεννῳ!

I could never have found those references. Thanks much.

So, I'm thinking a gender match would be the default.

In the LXX examples, it seems that the more dramatic and bold statements are the ones with a gender mismatch.


Posted: January 2nd, 2013, 11:04 am
by Paul-Nitz
HELP!!! Now I'm not sure if gender match is the default, or mismatch. See Roberston and Smyth below.

Page 411-412 – Robertson
(b) THE NEUTER SINGULAR. This is not always to be regarded
as a breach of gender. Often the neuter conveys a different con-
ception. So in the question of Pilate, τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια (Jo. 18:38).
Cf. also τί οὖν ὁ νόμος; (Gal. 3:19), τί ἐστιν ἄνθρωπος; (Heb. 2:6), τι
ἂν εἴη ταῦτα; (Lu. 15:26), εἰ δοκεῖ τις εἶναι τι μηδὲν ὤν; (Gal. 6:3).
But on the other handy note εἶναι τινα (Ac. 5:36), αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ με-
γάλη ἐντολή (Mt. 22:3), τίς ἡ πρόσλημψις; (Ro. 11:15), τίς ἐστιν ἡ
ἐλπίς; (Eph. 1:18). In particular observe τί ὁ Πέτρος ἐγένετο (Ac.
12:18) and οὗτος δὲ τί (Jo. 21:21). Cf. also τοῦτο χάρις (twice) in
1 Pet. 2:19 f., where τοῦτο is predicate and really refers to εἰ ὑπο-
φέρει τις and εἰ ὑπομενεῖτε. Cf. also ἡ ψυχῆ πλεῖόν ἑστιν τῆς τροφῆς
(Lu. 12:23). Indeed ταῦτα may be the predicate with persons, as
ταῦτά τινες ἦτε (1 Cor. 6:11). The neuter adjective in the predi-
cate is perfectly normal in cases like ἱκανὸν τῷ τοιούτῳ ἡ ἐπιτιμία
αὕτη 2 Cor 2:6). So also ἀρκετὸν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἡ κακία αὐτῆς (Mt. 6:34).
Cf. also the reading of D ἀρεστὸν in Ac. 12:3. Blass1 treats ἀρκε-
τόν above and ἱκανόν ἐστιν, in Lu. 22:38 as like the Latin satis.
The neuter singular in the collective or general sense to represent
persons is not peculiar to the N. T. So τὸ κατέχον (2 Th. 2:6),
πᾶν ὅ (Jo. 17:2), τὸ ἀπολωλός (Lu. 19:10), etc. So the neuter
plural also as τὰ μωρὰ τοῦ κόσμου , τὰ ἀσθενῆ (1 Cor. 1:27). The
neuter article τὸ Ἅγαρ (Gal. 4:25) deals with the word Hagar,
not the gender of the person. In Jas. 4:4 μοιχαλίδες in W. H.
stands without μοιχαλοὶ καί, but none the less may be regarded
as comprehensive.2 Cf. γενεὰ μοιχαλίς (Mt. 12:39) and Hos. 2:
4, 23. In 1 Cor. 15:10 note εἰμὶ ὅ εἰμι, not ὅς, a different idea.

Eph. 6:17 μάχαιραν, ὅ ἐστιν ῥῆμα θεου. Blass1 observes that it is
only in the Apocalypse that this explanatory relative is assimilated
to the antecedent or predicate, as λαμπάδες, ἅ εἰσιν τὰ πνεύματα (Rev.
4:5), but ὀφθαλμοὺς ἑπτά, οἵ εἰσιν τὰ πνεύματα (5:6). But it is other-
wise with the ordinary relative, as ὁ ναὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, οἵτινές ἐστε ὑμεῖς (1
Cor. 3:17) Φιλίππους, ἥτις ἐστὶν πρώτη πόλις (Ac. 16 : 12); ὑπὸ τῶν
ἀντικειμένων, ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας (Ph. 1:28); ἐν ταῖς θλίψεσίν μου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, ἥτις ἐστὶν δόξα ὑμῶν (Eph. 3:13). The use of
τοῦτ’ ἔστιν is a common idiom in the later Greek (less so in the
older) and is exactly equivalent to the Latin id est and has no
regard to case, number or gender. So Ἐλωί--τοῦτ’ ἔστιν θεέ μου
(Mt. 27:46); τοῦτ’ ἔστιν τοὺς ἀδελφούς (Heb. 7:5). Cf. Heb. 2:
14; 9:11, etc. See further p. 399, and ch. XV, VII, (d), 10.

Page 399 Robertson
The phrase τοῦτ’ ἔστιν is used in epexegetical
apposition with the subject, as ὀλίγοι, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί (1 Pet.
3:20). But the phrase is a mere expletive and has no effect on
number (as seen above) or case. It can be used indifferently with
any case as the locative (Ro. 7:18), the instrumental (Mk. 7:2),
the accusative (Ac. 19:4; Heb. 13:15; Phil. 12), the genitive
(Heb. 9:11; 11:16). Any number of words or phrases may be
in apposition, as in ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ὄφις, ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὁκαλού-
μενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανˆς, ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην (Rev. 12:9).

A demonstrative pronoun may agree in gender with a substantive predicated of it, if connected with the substantive by a copulative verb ( cross917) expressed or understood: αὕτη (for τοῦτο) ἀρίστη διδασκαλία_this is the best manner of learning X. C. 8.7.24, εἰ δέ τις ταύτην (for τοῦτο) εἰρήνην ὑπολαμβάνει but if any one regards this as peace D. 9.9.
a. But the unattracted neuter is common, especially in definitions where the pronoun is the predicate: τοῦτ' ἔστιν ἡ δικαιοσύνη this is (what we call) justice P. R. 432b. So οὐχ ὕβρις ταῦτ' ἐστί; is not this insolence? Ar.Ran. 21.


Posted: January 2nd, 2013, 1:34 pm
by Louis L Sorenson
We should split this thread into two. One on a public Koine Conversational Phrasebook and one on Gender Agreement. I'd like to see a Wiki type phrasebook that is linked to or has a section of citations backing up the phrase and showing its usages in different contexts. I think that would be extremely helpful and give confidence to people that they are not speaking a Koine pidgin.


Posted: January 3rd, 2013, 6:43 am
by SusanJeffers
"speaking a Koine pidgin" -- and teaching "Koine pidgin" or at least highly idiosyncratic Koine to my students -- is my greatest fear and reservation about the whole "teach biblical Greek as if a living language" movement.

thanks to all who are pursuing the "communicative approach" to Koine, and sharing here on b-greek. I am on the trailing edge, but am beginning to incorporate bits and pieces in my online teaching. Why, just last semester I started writing
ευχαριστω σοι or ευχαριστω υμιν
rather than "thanks!" when responding to student posts... :-)

who knows what καινα might come out of my keyboard this time around (class starts Monday)...

ευχαριστω υμιν!

Susan Jeffers


Posted: January 3rd, 2013, 9:39 am
by Paul-Nitz
Louis L Sorenson wrote:I'd like to see a Wiki type phrasebook that is linked to or has a section of citations backing up the phrase and showing its usages in different contexts. I think that would be extremely helpful and give confidence to people that they are not speaking a Koine pidgin.
χρη ταυτα ουτως γινεσθαι!