Latin question for Greek word

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Philip Arend
Posts: 27
Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » October 22nd, 2018, 2:55 am

I've been looking at usage for αρπἀζω but have run into some Origen quotes seemingly available only in Latin, which I don't understand. I'm wondering if someone could help me translate these verses? I used google translate, but....

raptores sunt mali, sunt et boni; et boni quidem illi, de quibus dicit Salvator quia “regnum coelorum diripiunt’.

...Est tamen aliquid et secundum spiritalem intelligentiam culpabiliter rapere, sicut illi laudabiliter, ‘rapiunt regna coelerum’.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 22nd, 2018, 5:53 am

Philip Arend wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 2:55 am
I've been looking at usage for αρπἀζω but have run into some Origen quotes seemingly available only in Latin, which I don't understand. I'm wondering if someone could help me translate these verses? I used google translate, but....

raptores sunt mali, sunt et boni; et boni quidem illi, de quibus dicit Salvator quia “regnum coelorum diripiunt’.

...Est tamen aliquid et secundum spiritalem intelligentiam culpabiliter rapere, sicut illi laudabiliter, ‘rapiunt regna coelerum’.
Welcome to B-Greek, Phillip. Feel free to tell us a bit about yourself in the "Introductions" subforum.

Never, ever use Google translate for Latin or ancient Greek. To say it normally makes hash out of it is an understatement.

"Plunderers are bad; they are also good; and good indeed are those concerning whom the Savior says 'they seize the kingdom of heaven.'"

"Nevertheless it is something else to seize culpably according to spiritual understanding, just as those who 'seize the kingdom of heaven' do so laudably."

I would be very surprised if Origen is not commenting on Matt 11:12, A diebus autem Iohannis Baptistae usque nunc regnum caelorum vim patitur et violenti rapiunt illud, ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Joseph_Henry
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Joined: November 15th, 2018, 5:43 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Joseph_Henry » November 15th, 2018, 6:00 am

Thank you for such a detailed answer!
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Philip Arend
Posts: 27
Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » November 15th, 2018, 12:02 pm

This last post has reminded me that I regretfully never expressed my gratitude. Thanks Barry that was indeed a very thorough and helpful answer.
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Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1873
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 18th, 2018, 9:28 am

You are most certainly welcome. Funny thing, I was grousing not too long ago to Jonathan about people for whom we answer questions but never hear from again, mainly in the context of wanting to know if the person was genuinely helped by the response. Glad to know that you were!
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Philip Arend
Posts: 27
Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » October 14th, 2020, 7:08 am

I'm wondering if some latin light could be shed on Origen's further explanation of this verse. It seems just be talking about 1 Cor 6:10 about άραγες /raptores being excluded from the Kingdom of God, and then the latin translationr reads:

"Est tamen aliquid et secondum spirtalem intelligentium culpabiliter rapere, sicut illi laudabiliter 'rapiunt Regina coelerum'. Ut verbs causa dicamus: si homo nondum purgatus a vitiis, nondum segregatus a profanis et sordidis actibus velit se coetui sanctorum et perfectorum latenter ingerere et sermon, quo perfecta et mystica tractantur, audire: huiusmodi homo secretor et perfectorum scientism non bene rapuit.

The spelling corrector keeps turning perfectorum into perfecto rum. If I didn't catch any other errors...my apologies.

Philip

This time I am front loading my request with thankfulness for your consideration in translating.
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Philip Arend
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Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » October 14th, 2020, 7:10 am

" It seems just be talking about" should read "It seems to be referring to 1 Cor 6:10 in the section before the final quote" (Must be the rum...)
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Philip Arend
Posts: 27
Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » October 14th, 2020, 2:52 pm

Had to leave quickly and didn't notice some of the misspellings. Here is the corrected version if anyone would like to help me understand this latin quote.

Est tamen aliquid et secundum spiritalem intelligentium culpabiliter rapere, sicut illi laudabiliter 'rapiunt Regnum coelerum'. Ut verbi causa dicamus: si homo nondum purgatus a vitiis, nondum segregatus a profanis et sordidis actibus velit se coetui sanctorum et perfectorum latenter ingerere et sermonem, quo perfecta et mystica tractantur, audire: huiusmodi homo secretorum et perfectorum scientium non bene rapuit.

Thanks!
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Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1873
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 15th, 2020, 4:50 pm

Philip Arend wrote:
October 14th, 2020, 2:52 pm
Had to leave quickly and didn't notice some of the misspellings. Here is the corrected version if anyone would like to help me understand this latin quote.

Est tamen aliquid et secundum spiritalem intelligentium culpabiliter rapere, sicut illi laudabiliter 'rapiunt Regnum coelerum'. Ut verbi causa dicamus: si homo nondum purgatus a vitiis, nondum segregatus a profanis et sordidis actibus velit se coetui sanctorum et perfectorum latenter ingerere et sermonem, quo perfecta et mystica tractantur, audire: huiusmodi homo secretorum et perfectorum scientium non bene rapuit.

Thanks!
I too want some of that perfecto rum! However, I found the text, "intellegentium" should be intellegentiam, and "scientium" should be scientiam, which changes things considerably. I think what's it's supposed to say is something like:

"It is possible to take something in a blameworthy fashion even according to spiritual understanding (i.e., even for someone who has such understanding), just as they do so in a praiseworthy fashion that 'seize the kindgom of Heaven.' That we may speak for the sake of example: if a person not yet purged from vices, not yet separated from profane and sordid activities, wishes to force himself secretly on the gathering of the saints and to hear the word (possibly a sermon?) in which perfect and mystical things are treated, a person of this sort is not going to seize knowledge of the secret and perfect things well."
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Philip Arend
Posts: 27
Joined: October 14th, 2018, 1:15 am

Re: Latin question for Greek word

Post by Philip Arend » October 17th, 2020, 5:37 am

Thanks very much indeed. Origen is quite an original thinker - this passage seems to be referencing the seizing of the kingdom as the Church father's understood Matthew 11:12, but warning that those who don't want to give up their sin won't really obtain the kingdom's spiritual riches. Perhaps referring to his battles with gnostics. Fascinating. Thanks again.
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