Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

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Michael Sharpnack
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Location: Nashville

Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Michael Sharpnack » June 15th, 2017, 12:39 pm

"13 ιδου συνησει ο παις μου και υψωμησεται και δοξασθησεται σφοδρα. 14 ον τροπον εκστησονται επι σε πολλοι (ουτως αδοξησει απο ανθρωπων το εἶδος σου και η δοξα σου απο των ανθρωπων" (Text from Decker's Reader).

In vs 14, I'm having a hard time telling what the subject of αδοξησει is. At first I thought it was referring back to 'ο παις', but in Decker's notes he says "The subject of the sentence is το εἶδος σου". Usually he doesn't have a note that just gives the information like this without an explanation.

So, how does he know that 'το εἶδος σου' is the subject? And, why wouldn't 'η δοξα σου' be a compound subject with it?

Robert Crowe
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Re: Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Robert Crowe » June 15th, 2017, 1:35 pm

οὕτως introduces a correlative clause of manner, where the subject is τὸ εἶδός σου, καὶ ἡ δόξα σου. It's not unusual in Greek for a compound subject to take a verb in the singular.
Tús maith leath na hoibre.

Michael Sharpnack
Posts: 31
Joined: February 2nd, 2017, 5:13 pm
Location: Nashville

Re: Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Michael Sharpnack » June 15th, 2017, 2:41 pm

Robert Crowe wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 1:35 pm
οὕτως introduces a correlative clause of manner, where the subject is τὸ εἶδός σου, καὶ ἡ δόξα σου. It's not unusual in Greek for a compound subject to take a verb in the singular.
Decker has ἡ δόξα σου as a separate clause where he says "To make good sense in English, a verb must be supplied before [απο των ανθρωπων]".

Robert Crowe
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Robert Crowe » June 15th, 2017, 3:10 pm

Michael Sharpnack wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 2:41 pm
Decker has ἡ δόξα σου as a separate clause where he says "To make good sense in English, a verb must be supplied before [απο των ανθρωπων]".
Yes, that would be right. Sorry, I was taking τὸ εἶδος σου, καὶ ἡ δόξα σου as a compound subject, whereas καί begins a separate clause. To get the sense ἀδοξήσει needs to be understood before ἀπὸ υἱῶν ἀνθρώπων. i.e. It is explicit before ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων, but implicit before ἀπὸ υἱῶν ἀνθρώπων. Hope that gets us there.
Tús maith leath na hoibre.

Ken M. Penner
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Re: Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Ken M. Penner » June 16th, 2017, 12:59 pm

Michael Sharpnack wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 12:39 pm
"13 ιδου συνησει ο παις μου και υψωμησεται και δοξασθησεται σφοδρα. 14 ον τροπον εκστησονται επι σε πολλοι (ουτως αδοξησει απο ανθρωπων το εἶδος σου και η δοξα σου απο των ανθρωπων" (Text from Decker's Reader).

In vs 14, I'm having a hard time telling what the subject of αδοξησει is. At first I thought it was referring back to 'ο παις', but in Decker's notes he says "The subject of the sentence is το εἶδος σου". Usually he doesn't have a note that just gives the information like this without an explanation.

So, how does he know that 'το εἶδος σου' is the subject? And, why wouldn't 'η δοξα σου' be a compound subject with it?
The fact that there are two prepositional phrases ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων and ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων indicates there are two parallel clauses, one with the subject τὸ εἶδός σου and one with subject ἡ δόξα σου.

Three indicators make reading the neuter τὸ εἶδός as nominative rather than accusative preferable: (a) ἀδοξήσει is normally intransitive, and therefore typically has a subject but not an object; (b) τὸ εἶδός σου is in parallel with the nominative ἡ δόξα σου; (c) the prepositional phrase ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων fits better if it indicates the group doing the despising (“your appearance will be held in contempt by humans”) than if a subject (ὁ παῖς) is imported from earlier in the paragraph (“my servant will hold your appearance in contempt from humans.”)
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Michael Sharpnack
Posts: 31
Joined: February 2nd, 2017, 5:13 pm
Location: Nashville

Re: Isaiah 52:13-14, question on the subject

Post by Michael Sharpnack » June 30th, 2017, 9:04 am

Ken M. Penner wrote:
June 16th, 2017, 12:59 pm
Michael Sharpnack wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 12:39 pm
"13 ιδου συνησει ο παις μου και υψωμησεται και δοξασθησεται σφοδρα. 14 ον τροπον εκστησονται επι σε πολλοι (ουτως αδοξησει απο ανθρωπων το εἶδος σου και η δοξα σου απο των ανθρωπων" (Text from Decker's Reader).

In vs 14, I'm having a hard time telling what the subject of αδοξησει is. At first I thought it was referring back to 'ο παις', but in Decker's notes he says "The subject of the sentence is το εἶδος σου". Usually he doesn't have a note that just gives the information like this without an explanation.

So, how does he know that 'το εἶδος σου' is the subject? And, why wouldn't 'η δοξα σου' be a compound subject with it?
The fact that there are two prepositional phrases ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων and ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων indicates there are two parallel clauses, one with the subject τὸ εἶδός σου and one with subject ἡ δόξα σου.

Three indicators make reading the neuter τὸ εἶδός as nominative rather than accusative preferable: (a) ἀδοξήσει is normally intransitive, and therefore typically has a subject but not an object; (b) τὸ εἶδός σου is in parallel with the nominative ἡ δόξα σου; (c) the prepositional phrase ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων fits better if it indicates the group doing the despising (“your appearance will be held in contempt by humans”) than if a subject (ὁ παῖς) is imported from earlier in the paragraph (“my servant will hold your appearance in contempt from humans.”)
Awesome, thank you Ken, that makes a lot of sense.

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