They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

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Tim Evans
Posts: 91
Joined: July 10th, 2015, 1:40 am

They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Tim Evans »

I really appreciate all of the great feedback you guys are able to provide, I wonder if anyone can help with this one
οἱ μὲν γὰρ
- πρὸς ὀλίγας ἡμέρας
- κατὰ τὸ δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς
ἐπαίδευον,
i.e.
They
- for a short time
- according to what seemed best to them
disciplined

For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them,
Is there an "us" hiding here somewhere? (I understand that the context implies the direct object is _us_ but I am thrown off by the fact NASB doesn't show it has been added)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Wes Wood »

[9] εἶτα τοὺς μὲν τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας εἴχομεν παιδευτὰς καὶ ἐνετρεπόμεθα: οὐ πολὺ μᾶλλον ὑποταγησόμεθα τῷ πατρὶ τῶν πνευμάτων καὶ ζήσομεν; [10] οἱ μὲν γὰρ πρὸς ὀλίγας ἡμέρας κατὰ τὸ δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς ἐπαίδευον, ὁ δὲ ἐπὶ τὸ συμφέρον εἰς τὸ μεταλαβεῖν τῆς ἁγιότητος αὐτοῦ.


I am on my phone and have posted the W&H rather than the NA/UBS text for 12:9-10 for my convenience. I think the answer to your question lies in the close relationship of verse nine to verse ten. Verse nine says, in part, that we had fleshly fathers to train us and implies that we should submit to the father more. Verse ten continues this comparison between fatherly discipline and the disciple of God. The discipline in verse nine was already tied to ...ἡμῶν πατέρας. For this reason, I wouldn't have special formatting for 'us' had I been the author, commitee, editor, etc. As is hopefully evident, this is only my 2 cents.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Tim Evans wrote:I really appreciate all of the great feedback you guys are able to provide, I wonder if anyone can help with this one
οἱ μὲν γὰρ
- πρὸς ὀλίγας ἡμέρας
- κατὰ τὸ δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς
ἐπαίδευον,
i.e.
They
- for a short time
- according to what seemed best to them
disciplined

For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them,
Is there an "us" hiding here somewhere? (I understand that the context implies the direct object is _us_ but I am thrown off by the fact NASB doesn't show it has been added)
Just to be perfectly pedantic, not elision (which is the omission of a final letter or syllable), but elipsis is the correct term.
Does this mean an "us" is considered to be ellided? NASB doesn't indicate so with its special method of capitalising to indicate "added" text:
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Jason Hare
Posts: 951
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 5:28 pm
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Jason Hare »

Wes Wood wrote:[9] εἶτα τοὺς μὲν τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας εἴχομεν παιδευτὰς καὶ ἐνετρεπόμεθα: οὐ πολὺ μᾶλλον ὑποταγησόμεθα τῷ πατρὶ τῶν πνευμάτων καὶ ζήσομεν; [10] οἱ μὲν γὰρ πρὸς ὀλίγας ἡμέρας κατὰ τὸ δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς ἐπαίδευον, ὁ δὲ ἐπὶ τὸ συμφέρον εἰς τὸ μεταλαβεῖν τῆς ἁγιότητος αὐτοῦ.
Here's the text from the USB4:
εἶτα τοὺς μὲν τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρας εἴχομεν παιδευτὰς καὶ ἐνετρεπόμεθα· οὐ πολὺ [δὲ] μᾶλλον ὑποταγησόμεθα τῷ πατρὶ τῶν πνευμάτων καὶ ζήσομεν; οἱ μὲν γὰρ πρὸς ὀλίγας ἡμέρας κατὰ τὸ δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς ἐπαίδευον, ὁ δὲ ἐπὶ τὸ συμφέρον εἰς τὸ μεταλαβεῖν τῆς ἁγιότητος αὐτοῦ.
You'll notice that the text is identical, so your convenience didn't inconvenience anyone else. :)

I'd definitely agree with your comment, Wes, that the "us" idea is pulled from verse 9. It's talking about "our fathers" disciplining "us" when we were children, as compared to spiritual disciple that we receive from our spiritual father. I agree with you.
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
Tim Evans
Posts: 91
Joined: July 10th, 2015, 1:40 am

Re: They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Tim Evans »

Thanks, that is what I suspected, but I wasn't entirely sure I wasn't simply missing something.

I guess this means NASB doesn't use its uppercase convention when they consider the word the evidence for that word is strong enough in the context that it doesn't need the uppercase.
Tim Evans
Posts: 91
Joined: July 10th, 2015, 1:40 am

Re: They disciplined _us_ ?? (Heb 12:10)

Post by Tim Evans »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Just to be perfectly pedantic, not elision (which is the omission of a final letter or syllable), but elipsis is the correct term.
Does this mean an "us" is considered to be ellided? NASB doesn't indicate so with its special method of capitalising to indicate "added" text:
Thanks Barry, my lecturer uses "elided", I'll have to go look up the two words now :D
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