Tenses

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MAubrey
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Re: Tenses

Post by MAubrey » April 30th, 2019, 9:40 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 4:47 pm
Bruce McKinnon wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 3:59 pm
I've discovered that Rijksbaron is one of the editors of the very recently published Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek. It's advertised as shedding light from modern linguistics on all aspects of classical Greek grammar ...
I recommend reading some of it first before laying out the cash. My experience has been "shedding light from modern linguistics" doesn't amount to much in a grammar reference work. You will need to read monographs to seriously engage with linguistics. Haven't bothered to look at this book so I am not commenting on it.
With these four authors, the Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek is basically guaranteed to be excellent, if not the new standard work on the classical era of the language. Period.
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Mike Aubrey, Linguist
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MAubrey
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Re: Tenses

Post by MAubrey » April 30th, 2019, 9:43 pm

dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 12:58 pm
Campbell in forcing an imperfective aspect on the perfect tense, translated this to "I am fighting the good fight, I am finishing the race, I am keeping the faith", but I don't think that's correct. Paul was saying he had done those tasks (in the sense of accomplishment), not that he's still doing them (in temporal sense).
Yep! It isn't correct. You're precisely right here.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Tenses

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 1st, 2019, 6:02 am

Bruce McKinnon wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 3:59 pm
Hopefully without wandering too far off topic: I've discovered that Rijksbaron is one of the editors of the very recently published Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek. It's advertised as shedding light from modern linguistics on all aspects of classical Greek grammar, not just verbs. My training in classical Greek and Latin philology was long before any influence from linguistics so I'm tempted to acquire the book and, as a bonus, it may also shed light on NT Greek.
Amazon has a Kindle edition for $30. I bought it last night.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

MAubrey
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Re: Tenses

Post by MAubrey » May 1st, 2019, 4:51 pm

dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
I haven't read Rijksbaron, but I guess from the tables you posted that he laid out the usual explanation of the tenses ie. temporals in the indicative, state after a perfect, etc. Here's the thing about stativity after an action though, and one of the writers in Greek Verb Revisited mentioned this too — every done action has a state, if just of "has consequences", so it's not worth mentioning. Also, an aspect-only verb can still have temporal connotation, just that the connotation isn't in the verb; so an aorist or a perfect fits right into the past (only not necessarily) because they're completed actions. That's what Porter & co. were getting at, and I think they're on the right track because with a little adjustment their theory can have great explanatory power. The adjustment is to look at the action from the pov of its task instead of the writer's utterance. (Campbell tried to get rid of stativity in his postulation of the imperfective perfect, and somehow got back a temporal tense!)
If that's your reading of both GVR and Porter & co., then you've definitely missed something in the literature somewhere. You need to go back and start again.
dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
Let's look at 2 Tim 4:6-8.
Yes, let's.
dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
Ἐγὼ γὰρ ἤδη σπένδομαι, καὶ ὁ καιρὸς τῆς ἀναλύσεώς μου ἐφέστηκεν.
I'm being poured out (present, fitting ἤδη), and the time for my departure is here (perfect).
Note the tone of finality. There's no state after the perfect.
On the contrary, there is *only* a state after the perfect. The completion of an event places the participant/thing affected by the event in a state. but for root-ἵστημι verbs, the that relationship is one that only exists in the lexicon, not in the texts.

present ἐφίστημι 'I make x positioned near' (change-of-state event)
perfect ἐφέστηκα 'I am positioned near' (state)
dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
τὸν καλὸν ἀγῶνα ἠγώνισμαι, τὸν δρόμον τετέλεκα, τὴν πίστιν τετήρηκα:
Perfect, perfect, perfect, dangling...
A fought fight (state), a finished race (state), a kept faith (state).
dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
οὐ μόνον δὲ ἐμοὶ ἀλλὰ καὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ἠγαπηκόσι τὴν ἐπιφάνειαν αὐτοῦ.
not just for me, but also for all who love/affiliate-with (final perfect completing the ἠγώνισμαι, τετέλεκα, and τετήρηκα) Him. There's no after-state. This is the τέλος.
A τέλος is a state.
dimi wrote:
April 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm
Now, Mark 9:13. In Rijksbaron's scheme, that last ἤθελον would be in the past and would lose the connection with Jesus. Look at vv. 12 & 13

Ἠλίας μὲν ἐλθὼν πρῶτον ἀποκαθιστάνει πάντα, καὶ πῶς γέγραπται ἐπὶ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἵνα πολλὰ πάθῃ καὶ ἐξουδενηθῇ;
ἀλλὰ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι καὶ Ἠλίας ἐλήλυθεν, καὶ ἐποίησαν αὐτῷ ὅσα ἤθελον, καθὼς γέγραπται ἐπ’ αὐτόν.
ἐποίησαν and ἤθελον are in the past because ἐλήλυθεν requires them to be. And this pattern maintains the relationship to Jesus because we're at chapter 9 of Mark and half the story has already happened.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Tenses

Post by Stephen Carlson » May 1st, 2019, 7:51 pm

dimi wrote:
April 29th, 2019, 9:49 pm
Can I regard tenses this way?
Sounds like "phasal aspect," and no it doesn't work for Greek.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

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