Interpreting datives without prepositions.

The forum for those who still struggle with morphology, syntax, and idiom, or who wish to discuss basic questions about the meaning of Greek texts, syntax, or words.
Forum rules
This is not a place for students to ask for the answers to their homework assignments. Users who do that may be banned.
Sebastian Satkurunath
Posts: 27
Joined: December 28th, 2022, 2:33 pm

Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Sebastian Satkurunath »

Hi,

I've got another question where it's not clear to me why the answer in the textbook key is what it is.

The question gives the Greek as "ὁι δουλοι ποιουσιν ὁδον τῳ Κυριῳ" and the answer as "the slaves make a way for the Lord", which I can see fits, but what I can't see is how one can distinguish it from "the slaves make a way to the Lord", and the textbook doesn't seem to have a section on prepositions that I can skip ahead to.

Is it just that this is simplified because it's in an early chapter, and that in real life the dative will be accompanied by an extra word where it isn't immediately obvious from context? Or does this actually give rise to significant ambiguities?

Thanks,

Sebastian
--
Sebastian James Satkurunath
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4167
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Sebastian Satkurunath wrote: December 29th, 2022, 9:36 pm I've got another question where it's not clear to me why the answer in the textbook key is what it is.

The question gives the Greek as "ὁι δουλοι ποιουσιν ὁδον τῳ Κυριῳ" and the answer as "the slaves make a way for the Lord", which I can see fits, but what I can't see is how one can distinguish it from "the slaves make a way to the Lord", and the textbook doesn't seem to have a section on prepositions that I can skip ahead to.
I don't know if ποιουσιν ὁδον is really used to mean "make a way" or not, it feels funny to me. I'm also not sure what "make a way for the Lord" or "make a way to the Lord" is supposed to mean here - build a physical road? I wouldn't worry too much about that kind of thing for artificial textbook sentences. Instead, I would look for real sentences that are similar. For instance, prepare the way of the Lord:

Ἑτοιμάσατε τὴν ὁδὸν κυρίου

And for the use of the dative here, I would read through a bunch of examples of Κυριῳ to see the different senses it can take:

https://biblehub.com/greek/kurio__2962.htm

In other words, find some way to dig into real world Greek examples as soon as possible, and look at more examples than Wenham gives. You want to hone your intuition on these rather than the textbook examples.
Sebastian Satkurunath wrote: December 29th, 2022, 9:36 pmIs it just that this is simplified because it's in an early chapter, and that in real life the dative will be accompanied by an extra word where it isn't immediately obvious from context? Or does this actually give rise to significant ambiguities?
The case often gives it away. Some prepositional senses are naturally dative, others are naturally accusative or genitive. But each case can convey more than one thing, e.g. dative can be translated "to" or "for" in many cases. I'll post more on case and prepositions ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4167
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I find Mike and Rachel's preposition diagram particularly helpful for understanding spatial relations, case, and prepositions.

https://koine-greek.com/2020/11/27/intr ... ment-pt-i/

Image
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4167
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

"Adventures with a Lion" may help with intuition for the prepositions in the chart.

https://biblicalgreek.org/wp-content/up ... nsLION.pdf

The first page:
Screen Shot 2022-12-31 at 09.32.50.png
Screen Shot 2022-12-31 at 09.32.50.png (304.11 KiB) Viewed 2610 times
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
mikeatnip
Posts: 77
Joined: May 6th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

Jonathan Robie wrote: December 31st, 2022, 10:31 am I find Mike and Rachel's preposition diagram particularly helpful for understanding spatial relations, case, and prepositions.

https://koine-greek.com/2020/11/27/intr ... ment-pt-i/

Image
Wow, I hate to think that I, wannabe Greek reader that I am, find fault with the Aubreys. :shock:
I always pictured avti (excuse the lack of Greek letters here) as being "in front of" rather than "over." Thus I find both "opposition/replacement" and "reflection/correspondence" in the sense of being in front of something either to push against it, or as a corresponding "mirror-like" reflection. Any help for me on this, to correct my perception?
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
mikeatnip
Posts: 77
Joined: May 6th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

Jonathan Robie wrote: December 31st, 2022, 10:31 am I find Mike and Rachel's preposition diagram particularly helpful for understanding spatial relations, case, and prepositions.

https://koine-greek.com/2020/11/27/intr ... ment-pt-i/

Image
While I am being bold enough to make a fool out of myself, I may as well throw out another of my spatial perceptions: μετα (I figured out the setting on my computer to type Greek since the last post :-) although I cannot find the edit button for the previous one to make αντι) . I perceive this as "behind, following, (tagging along) with." In other words, spatially it is "behind," but it is staying with, following, so that it is "with". Any comments?
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
mikeatnip
Posts: 77
Joined: May 6th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

Off the mainline topic here, but can anyone tell me why my latest post has an edit button, but the previous one not? Timed edit button? Thanks.
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
MAubrey
Posts: 1091
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by MAubrey »

Hi everyone,

It wasn't particularly clear/visible, but the title of the figure was a link to the source of the chart, which is not us. I have now updated the posts to include a more explicit parenthesis of its source. The paragraph above the chart was trying to emphasize that these kinds of charts are limited in the information they give in one way about how prepositions mean and that preposition entries in lexicons are limited in the information they give in another way. That chart was only for illustration purposes of what spatial charts look like.

That said: I'm surprised to see ἀντί treated as 'over'. Rachel and I gloss its spatial sense as "a preposition denoting anterior location of a TRAJECTOR in front of a LANDMARK".
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
mikeatnip
Posts: 77
Joined: May 6th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

MAubrey wrote: December 31st, 2022, 6:42 pm Rachel and I gloss its spatial sense as "a preposition denoting anterior location of a TRAJECTOR in front of a LANDMARK".
Thank you. That is what I had in mind, but not being a linguist who knows off hand the terms TRAJECTOR and LANDMARK.
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
mikeatnip
Posts: 77
Joined: May 6th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Re: Interpreting datives without prepositions.

Post by mikeatnip »

And, of course, the limitations of spatial charts. Prepositions do funny things. Am I going up to town today, or going down to town today? Might depend on whether I say that while standing or sitting. :-)
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
Post Reply

Return to “Beginners Forum”