γραφει τους λογους

Is vocalizing the Greek words and sentences important? If so, how should Greek be pronounced (what arguments can be made for one pronunciation over another or others?) How can I write Greek characters clearly and legibly?
Scott Verreault
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γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 23rd, 2019, 12:18 pm

Ok...

So in my text book it says:

γραφει τους λογους - he writes the words

But when I look it up ( because I’m looking everything up on google transulte as I go to hear the pronunciation after I prounce it myself ) it is saying:

γράφει τις λέξεις - he writes the words
γραφει τους λογους - writes the reasons

Why?

If you think I should be using something else besides google translate for pronunciation - please let me know. I need it for my iPhone.

Thanks!
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 23rd, 2019, 12:33 pm

Hi Scott,

Your textbook probably uses a variant of Erasmian pronunciation, which is an American's attempt to use a medieval Dutchman's notion of how ancient Greek was pronounced. For this particular phrase, Google Translate doesn't do too bad, but it didn't do so well on a few sentences of biblical Greek that I just tried.

There's more than one way to pronounce Greek. If you learn modern Greek pronunciation, some important words are really hard to distinguish. Many of us use some variant of Randall Buth's pronunciation. Here's a table showing how I pronounce Greek when I teach:

Greek Pronunciation

You might want to create your own document, showing the pronunciation you work out for various words. You can refer to it whenever you want to be consistent.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Daniel Semler
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Daniel Semler » March 23rd, 2019, 4:56 pm

But when I look it up ( because I’m looking everything up on google transulte as I go to hear the pronunciation after I prounce it myself ) it is saying:

γράφει τις λέξεις - he writes the words
γραφει τους λογους - writes the reasons

Why?
What lexicon do you have ?

Regarding google translate. I don't see a Biblical Greek option and my guess is it is translating English to modern Greek. I don't know what lexicon it uses. Common or core uses of some words (perhaps many given the time involved) will have moved over time. λἐξη doesn't appear in the NT, and even in the Septuagint it's very much in the minority, with λὀγος being the preferred term in both.

Thx
D
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 23rd, 2019, 5:08 pm

Don’t use Google Translate for Koine Greek. It’s not set up for it, and modern Greek is too different.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Scott Verreault
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 23rd, 2019, 7:12 pm

So as I mentioned in my introduction post - I am a beginner. :D

https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... =35&t=4765

You will see in that post 3 pictures - that is all I have so far so I haven’t purchased a lexicon yet. If you have suggestions I will take them.

Thanks for the pronunciation document Jonathan!
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Scott Verreault
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 23rd, 2019, 7:41 pm

So it looks like the attached picture is incorrect for Koine Greek then.
Attachments
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Daniel Semler
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Daniel Semler » March 23rd, 2019, 10:34 pm

Hi Scott,

I would start with BDAG

A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature
revised and edited by Fredrick William Danker

called BDAG after the compilers, Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich.

For NT it's pretty much the standard. I use a bunch of others too but this is where I started and I still use it all the time.

Thx
D
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S Walch
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by S Walch » March 23rd, 2019, 11:50 pm

Hi Scott,

There's the LSJ Abridged over at archive.org - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 1/page/n11

You can also get access to the full LSJ over at Perseus: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... entry%3D*a
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Scott Verreault
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Scott Verreault » March 24th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 10:34 pm
Hi Scott,

I would start with BDAG

A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature
revised and edited by Fredrick William Danker

called BDAG after the compilers, Bauer, Danker, Arndt and Gingrich.
Thanks Daniel!

I purchased the one for Logos Bible. Works good on the iPhone and iPad app.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: γραφει τους λογους

Post by Jonathan Robie » March 24th, 2019, 8:19 pm

Scott Verreault wrote:
March 23rd, 2019, 7:41 pm
So it looks like the attached picture is incorrect for Koine Greek then.
Well, it's not the way they pronounced Koine Greek back then. But it's a common way for people who learn in Western seminaries now. It kind of hurts my ears ... but I hear it a lot.

I think you will find Greek more natural with a pronunciation closer to modern Greek, any one of the common variants on restored Koine pronunciation. If you are interested in the variety of pronunciation used today, here's a quote from an earlier thread that may be helpful.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
October 24th, 2015, 3:09 pm
Stephen Hughes wrote:I have said something about the changes and survival of η as "e" or "i" in Modern Greek, as an indication of variety, rather than conformity in another thread just now, seeing as it goes beyond what is being looked for here. The main point is that η among all other vowels is the one that has the least standardisation (the other and to a lesser extent is υ as "i" or "ου").
As Tim Finney asks, "how is modern English pronounced?" There's some variety.

A couple of useful links:
As the last points out:
As regards Greek pronunciation, the disputed letters in the period of the NT are the following:
Six consonants: β γ δ ζ θ χ
Three vowels: η υ ω
Seven diphthongs: αυ ευ ηυ αι ει οι υι
Buth, Theophilos, and modern are all putting on the same green.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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