ἄρτι vs νῦν
Posted: January 30th, 2018, 9:20 am
What is the primary difference between these two words?
ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/
https://www.ibiblio.org:443/bgreek/forum/
https://www.ibiblio.org:443/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4334
Is there a primary difference? I believe that they're the same thing.PhillipLebsack wrote: ↑January 30th, 2018, 9:20 am What is the primary difference between these two words?
I can only say that this happens in Hebrew, where we have the following without distinction:PhillipLebsack wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 5:33 am But why would there be two different words that mean exactly the same thing? Surely there is a slightly different meaning?
Why wouldn't an author just use one of them as opposed to using them in different places in the same book to describe things?
Thanks for linking to the other thread. That and what you said is very enlightening...Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 9:58 am I'm not sure that they are exactly interchangeable, but I don't know if they are different, and if they are, I don't know exactly what the difference is. There was a thread on this here:
https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vi ... f=12&t=661
It's easy to do a quick search, but analyzing results takes time, and I know that some people have studied this in some depth without coming up with a good answer. One thing I noticed right off: the phrase ἕως ἄρτι is reasonably common, so I wanted to see if we see ἕως νῦν. I can't find that, but I do find ἕως τοῦ νῦν, with the article. Is there a difference that requires the article in this phrase?
It sounds like a fun research project! But I think i'll take your advice and just view them as the same for now, with Abbott's statement in mind.This is the kind of question that is hard for even experts, the kind of thing that people write research papers about. And for now, it's probably a question to postpone until you are comfortable reading pages of Greek. They may not be identical, but I'm not sure we know what the difference is, and treating them as identical is good enough for now. Some day you might write that paper and tell us the answer.
Thank you for your replies Jason.Jason Hare wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 7:13 amI can only say that this happens in Hebrew, where we have the following without distinction:PhillipLebsack wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 5:33 am But why would there be two different words that mean exactly the same thing? Surely there is a slightly different meaning?
Why wouldn't an author just use one of them as opposed to using them in different places in the same book to describe things?
פֹּה pōh = כָּאן kāʾn "here"
אֵיךְ ʾêḵ = כֵּיצָד kêṣāḏ "how?"
לָמָה lã́mâ = מַדּוּעַ maddûaʿ "why?"
אֵי / אַיֵּה ʾê / ʾayyēh = אֵיפֹה ʾêp̄ōh = הֵיכָן hêḵān = "where?"
These pairs can basically be used interchangeably.
The two terms νῦν and ἄρτι probably came into the language at different points, and different speakers / authors probably favored one over the other.
I don't have any statistics for this, but it's not unreasonable.
I haven't read it, so I have no opinion. Some old books are quite good.PhillipLebsack wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 11:14 am Would you say that Abbott's Johannine Grammar is outdated or is it good to read today?
Why would an interrogative particle have a feminine form? Perhaps you mean to ask if it's אֵי with a feminine pronoun attached to it? No, that is not what it is. First off, the ending for feminine pronouns will never be -ēh. It will either be -āh, -éha or -ếha. Look at the examples of אַיֵּה here. It means the same thing as אֵיפֹה.PhillipLebsack wrote: ↑January 31st, 2018, 11:17 am By the way, I am also studying Hebrew. Isn't אַיֵּה just the feminine form of אֵי?