πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » January 11th, 2018, 5:14 am

R. Perkins wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 12:39 am
On what textual basis are y'all asserting that the aorist participle πέμψαντός is modifying ποιῶ and not καταβέβηκα? That is, when I come to a specific text how would I tell if the participle is functioning substantivally or verbally?
I think nobody said it is "modifying" ποιῶ. "τοῦ πέμψαντός με" works like a noun. Syntactically it could be replaced with "father" (or "the father" or "my father"). What would that modify?

Also, we have to remember that not all temporal relations are only grammatical inside the discourse. One anchor point in time is the moment when Jesus spoke and the hearers heard (the time of the "utterance"). τοῦ πέμψαντός can be understood to be related to that moment: the one who sent/has sent Jesus before the time of the utterance.

R. Perkins
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by R. Perkins » January 11th, 2018, 7:36 am

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 5:14 am
R. Perkins wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 12:39 am
On what textual basis are y'all asserting that the aorist participle πέμψαντός is modifying ποιῶ and not καταβέβηκα? That is, when I come to a specific text how would I tell if the participle is functioning substantivally or verbally?
I think nobody said it is "modifying" ποιῶ. "τοῦ πέμψαντός με" works like a noun. Syntactically it could be replaced with "father" (or "the father" or "my father"). What would that modify?

Also, we have to remember that not all temporal relations are only grammatical inside the discourse. One anchor point in time is the moment when Jesus spoke and the hearers heard (the time of the "utterance"). τοῦ πέμψαντός can be understood to be related to that moment: the one who sent/has sent Jesus before the time of the utterance.
Yea’, I thought as I wrote above that “modifying” is not the correct term (substantival term?). Should have known someone would catch me in my folly :oops: :D!

Your last statement above has been the very thing rolling through my mind, but you put it far better than I could codify.

Greatly appreciated.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 11th, 2018, 11:42 am

R. Perkins wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 12:39 am
That is, when I come to a specific text how would I tell if the participle is functioning substantivally or verbally?
It's usually obvious when a participle is functioning as a noun or an adjective because it's part of a noun phrase, and it occurs where you would expect to find a noun or an adjective. Paul Nitz gave helpful examples:
ὁ ἄνθρωπος ποιεῖ τι. The man does something.
ὁ πέμψας με ἀληθής ἐστιν The one sending me is true. Jn 8:26
In the first example, ὁ ἄνθρωπος is a noun. In the second, ὁ πέμψας με occurs where you would expect to find a noun, and it functions as a noun.
ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ ἀνήρ ὁ πλούσιος. That one was a rich man.
ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ λύχνος ὁ φαίνων That one was the shining lamp. Jn 5:35
In the first example, πλούσιος is an adjective. In the second example, φαίνων appears where you would expect to find an adjective.

Does that help?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

R. Perkins
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by R. Perkins » January 12th, 2018, 6:10 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 11:42 am
R. Perkins wrote:
January 11th, 2018, 12:39 am
That is, when I come to a specific text how would I tell if the participle is functioning substantivally or verbally?
It's usually obvious when a participle is functioning as a noun or an adjective because it's part of a noun phrase, and it occurs where you would expect to find a noun or an adjective. Paul Nitz gave helpful examples:
ὁ ἄνθρωπος ποιεῖ τι. The man does something.
ὁ πέμψας με ἀληθής ἐστιν The one sending me is true. Jn 8:26
In the first example, ὁ ἄνθρωπος is a noun. In the second, ὁ πέμψας με occurs where you would expect to find a noun, and it functions as a noun.
ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ ἀνήρ ὁ πλούσιος. That one was a rich man.
ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ λύχνος ὁ φαίνων That one was the shining lamp. Jn 5:35
In the first example, πλούσιος is an adjective. In the second example, φαίνων appears where you would expect to find an adjective.

Does that help?
Yes! Having to go over it very slowly though :oops:.

But, slowly sinking in (as seems to be the case in general w. Greek for me)!

Jonathan Robie
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 12th, 2018, 12:05 pm

R. Perkins wrote:
January 12th, 2018, 6:10 am
But, slowly sinking in (as seems to be the case in general w. Greek for me)!
That's how you learn languages. They sink in slowly over time. I think these two sections of Funk might be helpful, providing many more examples:
The first chapter gives an overview of the major functions of the participle:
The following sentences illustrate the three major functions of the participle:

(1) ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ λύχνος ὁ καιόμενος καὶ φαίνων Jn 5:35
He was the burning and shining lamp
(2) ἐπαύσαντο τὺπτοντες τὸν Παῦλον Acts 21:32
They stopped beating Paul
(3) καὶ ἀκούσαντες ἐθαύμασαν Mt 22:22
And when they heard, they marveled

770.1 In (1) the two participles (καιόμενος καὶ φαίνων) are employed adjectivally to modify λύχνος, as the repetition of the article indicates (ὁ ... ὁ ...) (§684). This use of the participle in nominal word clusters is said to be attributive (to be considered in detail below).

770.2 The participle (τύπτοντες) in (2) is said to supplement the main or finite verb (ἐπαύσαντο) in forming a verb chain. This use of the participle is conventionally called supplementary. It is treated in this grammar under verb chains (§§568, 571f.; see §§584, 585 for additional uses of the supplementary participle).

770.3 In example (3), ἀκούσαντες functions adverbially, in that it depicts the circumstances under which the action denoted by the main verb takes place. Here it is the equivalent of a temporal clause. This use of the participle is termed circumstantial because the participle (and its complements) depicts the circumstances, e.g. time, cause, means, manner, condition, under which the action denoted by the main verb takes place. The circumstantial participle will be treated under adverbial clauses (§§0845-849).
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

R. Perkins
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by R. Perkins » January 13th, 2018, 3:28 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
January 12th, 2018, 12:05 pm
R. Perkins wrote:
January 12th, 2018, 6:10 am
But, slowly sinking in (as seems to be the case in general w. Greek for me)!
That's how you learn languages. They sink in slowly over time. I think these two sections of Funk might be helpful, providing many more examples:
The first chapter gives an overview of the major functions of the participle:
The following sentences illustrate the three major functions of the participle:

(1) ἐκεῖνος ἦν ὁ λύχνος ὁ καιόμενος καὶ φαίνων Jn 5:35
He was the burning and shining lamp
(2) ἐπαύσαντο τὺπτοντες τὸν Παῦλον Acts 21:32
They stopped beating Paul
(3) καὶ ἀκούσαντες ἐθαύμασαν Mt 22:22
And when they heard, they marveled

770.1 In (1) the two participles (καιόμενος καὶ φαίνων) are employed adjectivally to modify λύχνος, as the repetition of the article indicates (ὁ ... ὁ ...) (§684). This use of the participle in nominal word clusters is said to be attributive (to be considered in detail below).

770.2 The participle (τύπτοντες) in (2) is said to supplement the main or finite verb (ἐπαύσαντο) in forming a verb chain. This use of the participle is conventionally called supplementary. It is treated in this grammar under verb chains (§§568, 571f.; see §§584, 585 for additional uses of the supplementary participle).

770.3 In example (3), ἀκούσαντες functions adverbially, in that it depicts the circumstances under which the action denoted by the main verb takes place. Here it is the equivalent of a temporal clause. This use of the participle is termed circumstantial because the participle (and its complements) depicts the circumstances, e.g. time, cause, means, manner, condition, under which the action denoted by the main verb takes place. The circumstantial participle will be treated under adverbial clauses (§§0845-849).
A lot to soak in here. I have BDF in book form (wish I had the software), but, a bit intense for a (just beginning) Greek II student. Again, I find I have to read each portion slowly & several times to grasp it (& then reread it many times for the concept to sink in fully).

Tremendous resource. Greatly appreciated.

paorear
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by paorear » January 13th, 2018, 12:54 pm

R. Perkins wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 3:28 am
A lot to soak in here. I have BDF in book form (wish I had the software), but, a bit intense for a (just beginning) Greek II student. Again, I find I have to read each portion slowly & several times to grasp it (& then reread it many times for the concept to sink in fully).
Just to clarify - Jonathan's quotes aren't from BDF (Blass-Debrunner-Funk), but from Funk's own 'beginning-intermediate' grammar:
A BEGINNING-INTERMEDIATE GRAMMAR OF HELLENISTIC GREEK
Volume I, II, III
Volume I SIGHT AND SOUND, NOMINAL SYSTEM, VERBAL SYSTEM
Volume II SYNTAX
Volume III Appendices, paradigms, index

by Robert W. Funk Second, Corrected Edition
Jonathan posted links to two of the chapters, but you can go to the Table of Contents and access the entire book online here on the ibiblio.org site:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/
Paul O'Rear

R. Perkins
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by R. Perkins » January 14th, 2018, 6:18 am

paorear wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 12:54 pm
R. Perkins wrote:
January 13th, 2018, 3:28 am
A lot to soak in here. I have BDF in book form (wish I had the software), but, a bit intense for a (just beginning) Greek II student. Again, I find I have to read each portion slowly & several times to grasp it (& then reread it many times for the concept to sink in fully).
Just to clarify - Jonathan's quotes aren't from BDF (Blass-Debrunner-Funk), but from Funk's own 'beginning-intermediate' grammar:
A BEGINNING-INTERMEDIATE GRAMMAR OF HELLENISTIC GREEK
Volume I, II, III
Volume I SIGHT AND SOUND, NOMINAL SYSTEM, VERBAL SYSTEM
Volume II SYNTAX
Volume III Appendices, paradigms, index

by Robert W. Funk Second, Corrected Edition
Jonathan posted links to two of the chapters, but you can go to the Table of Contents and access the entire book online here on the ibiblio.org site:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... pre-alpha/
Excellent! Incidentally, would y’all say that Robertson’s Grammar (Light from Ancient East) is still relative to biblical Greek in light of the Egyptian papyri? My Greek Proff. said yes since “we would all still be using Robertson if it weren’t for Dr. Wallace (& I would add Mounce, Carson, et al.). I have Robertson’s mammoth work, but for some reason seem to subconsciously deem it irrelevant anymore (probably due to recent advances in Koine as noted by Dr. Constantine Campbell, et al.). Same principle w. Thayer-Grimm (although I realize that Robertson was far ahead of them linguistically).

Greatly appreciate the link above!

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 14th, 2018, 10:55 am

R. Perkins wrote:
January 14th, 2018, 6:18 am
[
Excellent! Incidentally, would y’all say that Robertson’s Grammar (Light from Ancient East) is still relative to biblical Greek in light of the Egyptian papyri? My Greek Proff. said yes since “we would all still be using Robertson if it weren’t for Dr. Wallace (& I would add Mounce, Carson, et al.). I have Robertson’s mammoth work, but for some reason seem to subconsciously deem it irrelevant anymore (probably due to recent advances in Koine as noted by Dr. Constantine Campbell, et al.). Same principle w. Thayer-Grimm (although I realize that Robertson was far ahead of them linguistically).
Just to be perfectly pedantic, Robertson wrote A grammar of the Greek New Testament in the light of historical research. Deissman wrote Light from the Ancient Near East.

Still valuable, but remember that a lot of work in lexical semantics has been done since these were published. A lot more work remains to be done...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
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Re: πέμψαντός in J. 6.38?

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 14th, 2018, 11:16 am

Robertson is hard to read, but an excellent source of examples to illustrate most things, and really quite good if you learn to read him. Not the first place to learn new concept, but perhaps a great place to look for the examples once you have read an easier explanation elsewhere.

Find 2-3 grammars that you can read and compare them when you are learning something new. For the Greek verb, Rijksbaron has the best simple explanations, though his examples are harder to read for a NT student because they are mostly classical Greek.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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