Re: Participles in 1 John 2:4

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Participles in 1 John 2:4

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Deactivated User wrote:ὁ λέγων ὅτι ἔγνωκα αὐτὸν καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ μὴ τηρῶν ψεύστης ἐστίν, καὶ ἐν τούτῳ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν· (1Jo 2:4 NA28)

The first participle, ὁ λέγων, is substantival.

I know the second participle, μὴ τηρῶν, translates as "is not keeping," but what would be the use of this participle?
Looks to me like a chi-ism which could be mapped out as:

ὁ λέγων -> ὅτι ἔγνωκα αὐτὸν

καὶ

μὴ τηρῶν -> τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ

where ὁ construes with both participles
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Jonathan Robie
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Location: Durham, NC
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Re: Participles in 1 John 2:4

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:Looks to me like a chi-ism which could be mapped out as:

ὁ λέγων -> ὅτι ἔγνωκα αὐτὸν

καὶ

μὴ τηρῶν -> τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ

where ὁ construes with both participles
I agree.

You correctly grasped ὁ λέγων, I suspect you would correctly understand ὁ μὴ τηρῶν. But if it said ὁ λέγων καὶ ὁ μὴ τηρῶν, that would imply two different people, one who speaks, and one who does not keep the commandments. So ὁ is used once, ὁ λέγων καὶ μὴ τηρῶν, to describe one person who both speaks and does not keep the commandments.

As for Stirling's comment on chiasm, this page may be helpful to grasp what he is saying.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Shirley Rollinson
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Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
Location: New Mexico
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Re: Participles in 1 John 2:4

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Deactivated User wrote:ὁ λέγων ὅτι ἔγνωκα αὐτὸν καὶ τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ μὴ τηρῶν ψεύστης ἐστίν, καὶ ἐν τούτῳ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν· (1Jo 2:4 NA28)

The first participle, ὁ λέγων, is substantival.

I know the second participle, μὴ τηρῶν, translates as "is not keeping," but what would be the use of this participle?
Looks to me like a chi-ism which could be mapped out as:

ὁ λέγων -> ὅτι ἔγνωκα αὐτὸν

καὶ

μὴ τηρῶν -> τὰς ἐντολὰς αὐτοῦ

where ὁ construes with both participles
If an English example would help :
"The black and white horses" describes a group of horses who are all piebald (black and white patches on each of them)
"The black and the white horses" describes a group of horses, some of which are black, and some of which are white.
So if the "saying, and not keeping" is to be used to describe a person who "says this" and "does not keep that", then only one "the" - ὁ - would be used.
David Lim
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Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Participles in 1 John 2:4

Post by David Lim »

Shirley Rollinson wrote:If an English example would help :
"The black and white horses" describes a group of horses who are all piebald (black and white patches on each of them)
"The black and the white horses" describes a group of horses, some of which are black, and some of which are white.
So if the "saying, and not keeping" is to be used to describe a person who "says this" and "does not keep that", then only one "the" - ὁ - would be used.
No... This 'rule' often does not apply when the 'substantives' are adjectives, both in English as well as Koine Greek. We use phrases like "the first and second day" and "the big and small countries" all the time. Luke 6:35 has "τους αχαριστους και πονηρους" and Luke 14:21 has "τους πτωχους και αναπηρους και χωλους και τυφλους", but I couldn't find an instance with singular 'substantives' so I don't know about that case. Does anyone know any?

What I would say instead is that when one article is used for many 'substantives' joined by "και", the default meaning is that one entity (which may be plural like in Gal 4:9) is meant, but that can be easily overridden by the context if they are obviously intended to specify a number of possibilities like in the two examples above. In such cases the whole phrase sometimes behaves grammatically as if referring to one entity, but does not imply that such an entity must fit all the 'substantives' listed, such as in "The rich and poor man alike seeks happiness.".
δαυιδ λιμ
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