Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

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R. Perkins
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by R. Perkins » September 17th, 2015, 11:12 pm

Thank you Shirley, Stephen, etc. One final question before signing off this thread (don't mean to belabor the point):

Some one who has had very little Greek training recently stated (& I quote):

"Greek, as with many languages, uses masculine nouns to refer to classes or groups of people that consist of both men and women. 'Apostles' is a 'people group'." (Hence, the masculine usage).

This sounds like over-simplification to me (?). Ironically, this same writer pointed out that ἐκκλησίας is feminine - which is equally a "people group" (yet does not appear in the masculine contra his wooden statement)?

Your thoughts (again, I will not drag this out :oops:)?
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klriley
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by klriley » September 17th, 2015, 11:54 pm

Greek does use the masculine plural to refer to mixed groups. Churches/assemblies are all female, so this rule doesn't apply. The masculine gender is the default gender. The feminine gender is used because the word is feminine, or because all members of the group specified are feminine. The feminine seems to have developed comparatively late in the history of PIE, and I am not sure we can say that the masculine ever lost its generic animate flavour.
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Shirley Rollinson » September 19th, 2015, 8:45 pm

R. Perkins wrote:Thank you Shirley, Stephen, etc. One final question before signing off this thread (don't mean to belabor the point):

Some one who has had very little Greek training recently stated (& I quote):

"Greek, as with many languages, uses masculine nouns to refer to classes or groups of people that consist of both men and women. 'Apostles' is a 'people group'." (Hence, the masculine usage).

This sounds like over-simplification to me (?). Ironically, this same writer pointed out that ἐκκλησίας is feminine - which is equally a "people group" (yet does not appear in the masculine contra his wooden statement)?

Your thoughts (again, I will not drag this out :oops:)?
ἀποσταλος is masculine because it ends in -ος
ἐκκλησια is feminine because it ends in -α (the --ας ending is for the Accusative Plural)

Don't try to over-reason this out, because it will blow your mind when you get to towns such as Athens, Corinth, and Jerusalem :-)
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » September 19th, 2015, 10:02 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:ἀποσταλος is masculine because it ends in -ος
That's incorrect. οδος and νησος are just two examples of feminine nouns ending in ος.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Stephen Hughes » September 20th, 2015, 12:29 am

ἀπόστολος?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Shirley Rollinson » September 20th, 2015, 9:38 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:ἀπόστολος?
How does one say "Oops" in koine :oops:
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 20th, 2015, 6:09 pm

Shirley Rollinson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἀπόστολος?
How does one say "Oops" in koine :oops:
I would say it's speaking Greek with an American accent, but I believe you're British.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Danny King
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Danny King » November 19th, 2015, 12:34 pm

Here's another weird-gender word:
γυναικάριον, ου, τό - idle or silly woman.

Even though it's a ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, I'm memorizing it as I'm certain it'll come in handy soon enough. :D
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 19th, 2015, 4:10 pm

Danny King wrote:Here's another weird-gender word:
γυναικάριον, ου, τό - idle or silly woman.

Even though it's a ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, I'm memorizing it as I'm certain it'll come in handy soon enough. :D
While not a weird-gender word, if there is a need to describe someone, who thinks it's an interruption to what he's doing (or watching) to give you the time of day (receive and return your greeting) is troublesome, then perhaps he may be described as μισοκαλήμερος (cf. καλήμερος).
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Romans 16.7 - "Natural Gender" and "Arbitrary Gender"?

Post by Stephen Carlson » November 19th, 2015, 4:22 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Danny King wrote:Here's another weird-gender word:
γυναικάριον, ου, τό - idle or silly woman.

Even though it's a ἅπαξ λεγόμενον, I'm memorizing it as I'm certain it'll come in handy soon enough. :D
While not a weird-gender word, .
Perhaps it's considered weird because it's neuter and the referent is female. Not so weird to a Greek used to neuter diminutives.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

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