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John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: January 31st, 2018, 10:34 am
by PhillipLebsack
John 2:22 ὅτε οὖν ἠγέρθη ἐκ νεκρῶν, ἐμνήσθησαν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ὅτι τοῦτο ἔλεγεν, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν τῇ γραφῇ καὶ τῷ λόγῳ ⸀ὃν εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς.

My question is, does the scope of εἶπεν extend to both τῇ γραφῇ and τῷ λόγῳ or to just τῷ λόγῳ?

Should it be understood as: Jesus spoke/said/read the word and the writing?

Or, should it be understood as: Jesus spoke/said the word only?


At first glance you may think that it can't incorporate both the word and the writing because of how you would expect for the verb to be used...

However, see Matthew 22:31. "Have you not read that which God spoke to you saying..."

Greek: περὶ δὲ τῆς ἀναστάσεως τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑμῖν ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ λέγοντος·

This is a clear example of Jesus making a point that has a deeper meaning (which isn't necessarily within the interest of the question. I'm just pointing out that verbs can be used in ways we wouldn't think should be allowed...)

To reiterate my question, can the grammar allow for εἶπεν to be talking about both the word and the writing? Or is it ONLY limited to the word?

Re: John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: January 31st, 2018, 2:51 pm
by Jason Hare
"They believed in the Scripture and in the word/message which Jesus spoke."

These are two separate things. Γραφή refers to the Scripture (Law, Prophets and Psalms, as it is called in the NT).

Re: John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: January 31st, 2018, 3:53 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Jason Hare wrote:
January 31st, 2018, 2:51 pm
"They believed in the Scripture and in the word/message which Jesus spoke."

These are two separate things. Γραφή refers to the Scripture (Law, Prophets and Psalms, as it is called in the NT).
Yeah, like this:


καὶ
v ἐπίστευσαν
o
τῇ γραφῇ
καὶ
τῷ λόγῳ ὃν εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς

Re: John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: February 1st, 2018, 6:15 am
by PhillipLebsack
Thank you for your responses.

I'm wondering though is there any way to tell objectively where to draw the line for dependent clauses?

Re: John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: February 1st, 2018, 10:45 am
by Jonathan Robie
PhillipLebsack wrote:
February 1st, 2018, 6:15 am
I'm wondering though is there any way to tell objectively where to draw the line for dependent clauses?
The question you asked in the original post is one clue. Do people speak writings? Context and meaning are as important as syntax.

Re: John 2:22 Jesus said the word, or the word and the writing?

Posted: February 1st, 2018, 12:07 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Jonathan Robie wrote:
February 1st, 2018, 10:45 am
PhillipLebsack wrote:
February 1st, 2018, 6:15 am
I'm wondering though is there any way to tell objectively where to draw the line for dependent clauses?
The question you asked in the original post is one clue. Do people speak writings? Context and meaning are as important as syntax.
Well, generally, yes. A dependent clause normally has a word which indicates that it's a subordinate clause. As you learn the language you learn these words.