λαλεῖν in I Cor. 14.34, 35?
Posted: March 9th, 2018, 3:04 am
⸂αἱ γυναῖκες ⸆ ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν· οὐ γὰρ ⸀ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν, ἀλλʼ ⸁ὑποτασσέσθωσαν ⸇, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει⸃. εἰ δέ τι ⸀1μαθεῖν θέλουσιν, ἐν οἴκῳ τοὺς ἰδίους ἄνδρας ἐπερωτάτωσαν· αἰσχρὸν γάρ oἐστιν γυναικὶ λαλεῖν ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ. (NA28)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
If ever there was a thread to get me in trouble I figure this question might surely have the potential ! Seriously, I got an email from the former president of a Bible college inquiring about the Greek verb λαλεῖν in v. 34. We have become good friends throughout the years & is highly intelligent. He recently published his magnum opus of over 40 years of research on the KJVO controversy. I wanted to consult those w. far more knowledge of Greek than myself. Here's his query (copied):
Someone has suggested that insight may be gained on this question if we looked closely at the Greek terms for “speak/speaking” used by Paul. Scholars have debated for centuries the full meaning of lalein (speak) as used in the chapter 14 passages. According to Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, lalein was synonymous with lego (“to lay forth, relate in words, usually of systematic or set discourse”) in New Testament times. Strong says that lalein means “an extended or random harangue” (see 3004). It is the infinitive of laleo, meaning “to talk, utter words, preach, say, speak” (see 2980). Is the apostle saying that ecstatic speech (tongues, prophecy, etc.) is permissible since one is speaking by inspiration of the Spirit (“not from one’s own understanding”), but that teaching and instruction (via one’s own store of knowledge, communicating doctrine, judgments, and opinions) is the kind of speaking which is prohibited to women?
**My response to him (in part below) was to simply point out relevant lexicography on this verb:
BDAG: οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται λαλείν (women) are not permitted to express themselves 1 Cor 14:34f (cp. Plut., Mor. 142d: a woman ought to take care of her home and be quiet; for she should either converse with her husband or through him). This pass. refers to expression in a congregational assembly, which would engage not only in worship but in discussion of congregational affairs; the latter appears to be implied here, for it was contrary to custom for Hellenic women, in contrast to their privileges in certain cultic rites (cp. 1 Cor 11:5), to participate in public deliberations (s. Danker, Benefactor 164, w. ref. to IG II, 1369, 107-9; for other views s. comm.).
Concise Greek-English Dictionary: λαλέω speak, talk, say; preach, proclaim; tell; be able to speak; address, converse (with); promise (of God); sound (of thunder).
Zodhiates: (II) As modified by the context where the meaning lies not so much in the verb itself, laléo, as in the adjuncts.
(A) Of one teaching, meaning to teach, preach, used in an absolute sense (Luke 5:4; 1 Cor. 14:34, 35; 1 Pet. 4:11). (CWSB; Warren Baker; AMG Publishers)
Indeed, this Greek verb is translated "preach" 6x's in the KJV (also other translations such as NASB). Of course, context will always be the determiner in translation & word-meaning.
*Honestly, this is a sincere question & not intended to set off a firestorm. I do have my own exegesis-interpretation of this notoriously difficult text - but, wisdom says I might want to keep that to myself .
Although, I really would love to see your exegesis of this passage. However one views this text, IMO it's an important matter since Paul subsequently states, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
In particular I was hoping someone could shed some light on the infinitive λαλεῖν used in this text as per the question sent to me above. Thank you much.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
If ever there was a thread to get me in trouble I figure this question might surely have the potential ! Seriously, I got an email from the former president of a Bible college inquiring about the Greek verb λαλεῖν in v. 34. We have become good friends throughout the years & is highly intelligent. He recently published his magnum opus of over 40 years of research on the KJVO controversy. I wanted to consult those w. far more knowledge of Greek than myself. Here's his query (copied):
Someone has suggested that insight may be gained on this question if we looked closely at the Greek terms for “speak/speaking” used by Paul. Scholars have debated for centuries the full meaning of lalein (speak) as used in the chapter 14 passages. According to Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, lalein was synonymous with lego (“to lay forth, relate in words, usually of systematic or set discourse”) in New Testament times. Strong says that lalein means “an extended or random harangue” (see 3004). It is the infinitive of laleo, meaning “to talk, utter words, preach, say, speak” (see 2980). Is the apostle saying that ecstatic speech (tongues, prophecy, etc.) is permissible since one is speaking by inspiration of the Spirit (“not from one’s own understanding”), but that teaching and instruction (via one’s own store of knowledge, communicating doctrine, judgments, and opinions) is the kind of speaking which is prohibited to women?
**My response to him (in part below) was to simply point out relevant lexicography on this verb:
BDAG: οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται λαλείν (women) are not permitted to express themselves 1 Cor 14:34f (cp. Plut., Mor. 142d: a woman ought to take care of her home and be quiet; for she should either converse with her husband or through him). This pass. refers to expression in a congregational assembly, which would engage not only in worship but in discussion of congregational affairs; the latter appears to be implied here, for it was contrary to custom for Hellenic women, in contrast to their privileges in certain cultic rites (cp. 1 Cor 11:5), to participate in public deliberations (s. Danker, Benefactor 164, w. ref. to IG II, 1369, 107-9; for other views s. comm.).
Concise Greek-English Dictionary: λαλέω speak, talk, say; preach, proclaim; tell; be able to speak; address, converse (with); promise (of God); sound (of thunder).
Zodhiates: (II) As modified by the context where the meaning lies not so much in the verb itself, laléo, as in the adjuncts.
(A) Of one teaching, meaning to teach, preach, used in an absolute sense (Luke 5:4; 1 Cor. 14:34, 35; 1 Pet. 4:11). (CWSB; Warren Baker; AMG Publishers)
Indeed, this Greek verb is translated "preach" 6x's in the KJV (also other translations such as NASB). Of course, context will always be the determiner in translation & word-meaning.
*Honestly, this is a sincere question & not intended to set off a firestorm. I do have my own exegesis-interpretation of this notoriously difficult text - but, wisdom says I might want to keep that to myself .
Although, I really would love to see your exegesis of this passage. However one views this text, IMO it's an important matter since Paul subsequently states, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
In particular I was hoping someone could shed some light on the infinitive λαλεῖν used in this text as per the question sent to me above. Thank you much.