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In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: March 15th, 2019, 8:35 am
by Bill Ross
The normal approach is to resolve this theologically but I'm wondering if it should be explained in Koine terms as ad sensum (as is ἐσάλπισεν):
Revelation 11:15 καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν καὶ ἐγένοντο φωναὶ μεγάλαι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λέγοντες ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων
In this video http://dailydoseofgreek.com/scripture-p ... ion-11-15/ Professor Plummer explains that there is an apparent disagreement of gender in "ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν" but is analyzed as ad sensum, reflecting that in real life, despite the fact that the Greek uses the female gender, the male angel is being referenced.

So I have two questions:

* does βασιλεύσει refer only to the most immediate antecedent (the messiah)?
* does βασιλεύσει refer, via ad sensum to both antecedents somehow?

I am NOT looking for a theological explanation but rather of the proper analysis of the apparent discrepancies in mundane koine Greek terms.

Re: In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: March 15th, 2019, 6:54 pm
by Stephen Carlson
Bill Ross wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 8:35 am
The normal approach is to resolve this theologically but I'm wondering if it should be explained in Koine terms as ad sensum (as is ἐσάλπισεν):
Revelation 11:15 καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν καὶ ἐγένοντο φωναὶ μεγάλαι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λέγοντες ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων
In this video http://dailydoseofgreek.com/scripture-p ... ion-11-15/ Professor Plummer explains that there is an apparent disagreement of gender in "ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν" but is analyzed as ad sensum, reflecting that in real life, despite the fact that the Greek uses the female gender, the male angel is being referenced.
This summary made no sense to me, so I had to watch the video. Plummer is concerned about the concord of the masculine plural λέγοντες (which is not mentioned in this summary) with the feminine plural φωναὶ μεγάλαι. He discusses that the masculine is an example of constructio ad sensum, with plural angels or saints in heaven. There is no claim that it refers to a singular male angel. Also it is pointless to quote the verb ἐσάλπισεν since it lacks gender.
Bill Ross wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 8:35 am
So I have two questions:

* does βασιλεύσει refer only to the most immediate antecedent (the messiah)?
* does βασιλεύσει refer, via ad sensum to both antecedents somehow?

I am NOT looking for a theological explanation but rather of the proper analysis of the apparent discrepancies in mundane koine Greek terms.
These questions are confusing and unclear. Key terms are not stated or defined. What discrepancy do you have in mind? And what is the other antecedent? And what does this clause have to do with Plummer’s video? How much Greek have you studied?

Re: In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: March 16th, 2019, 7:43 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Bill, your questions seems to have little to do with Plummer's video, which is about the agreement of φωναὶ μεγάλαι (feminine) and λέγοντες (masculine). Otherwise, nobody has raised concerns about subjects and antecedents in this verse, which is quite straightforward and simple Greek otherwise.

Re: In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: March 16th, 2019, 11:00 am
by Bill Ross
Let me start over...

In Revelation 11:15 who is the subject of βασιλεύσει?:
Revelation 11:15 καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν καὶ ἐγένοντο φωναὶ μεγάλαι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λέγοντες ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων
Sorry to have over-complicated the question. I'm pretty sure my mom dropped me on my head; recently.

Re: In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: March 16th, 2019, 10:27 pm
by Shirley Rollinson
Bill Ross wrote:
March 16th, 2019, 11:00 am
Let me start over...

In Revelation 11:15 who is the subject of βασιλεύσει?:
Revelation 11:15 καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν καὶ ἐγένοντο φωναὶ μεγάλαι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λέγοντες ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων
Sorry to have over-complicated the question. I'm pretty sure my mom dropped me on my head; recently.
Bill, you're making it much more complicated than it is. And the video really has nothing to do with your question. You can split the text into three parts - A quotation, the intro to the quotation, and a preliminary clause. The quote is "ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ βασιλεύσει εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.", the intro is "καὶ ἐγένοντο φωναὶ μεγάλαι ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λέγοντες . . .", and the preliminary clause is "καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν"
"καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν" = "and the seventh angel trumpeted" - ἐσάλπισεν could be he, she, or it - but we know it's "he" because of " ὁ ἄγγελος".
What the video discusses is the non-agreement of φωναὶ μεγάλαι with λέγοντες i.e. the sense is referring to the angels/martyrs/witnesses/whatever making the great noise - and they could be all masculine or mixed guys and gals - either way would call for λέγοντες. That's all the video was saying. And making a great to-do about something which is really not very important.
What you are bothering about is the last part of the text, which has nothing to do with either ἄγγελος or φωναὶ. βασιλεύσει = he/she/it will reign/rule, and when we look for the noun(s) we find both κυρίος and Χριστος. Ah - I think I see now what has confused you - is it the "our Lord" and "His Christ" ? - it's the same person, not two different people - the "His" must refer to God the Father. And before we wander off into Trinitarian or Arian or whatever debate, let's just leave it as an echo of Hebrew parallelism - two ways of saying the same thing, two ways of referring to the same person, who is the one who will rule. And remember - John (or whoever is the author) is at a loss for words all the way through Revelation, he's trying to express what is beyond words.
Just my two denarii :-)
Shirley Rollinson

Re: In Revelation 11:15 to whom does βασιλεύσει refer?

Posted: April 4th, 2019, 10:01 am
by Bill Ross
While watching this Daily Dose of Greek video this morning and Dr. Plummer's explanation of a similar situation a bit later in Revelation seems to apply to Revelation 11:15 as well, so I consider this question answered:

http://dailydoseofgreek.com/scripture-p ... ion-12-10/

Thanks for the responses.